the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

LDShouler wrote:Thanks for lots of interesting replies, although it would be great if we could avoid falling into a debate about detail of a particular style. My conjecture is just that, for talking about ideas, and not to imply that everything should be changed and repackaged. I personally do not have a singular style or tradition (and I respect those of you who do), and having practised various styles of 'internal arts' (wu tai chi, yi quan, a bit of sun style ba gua and hebei xing yi) whilst coming from a background of 'external' styles, I'm interested more in commonalities than differences- I believe there"s a potential value to finding core attributes and perhaps a simple series of exercises that could contribute to the development of beginners of all styles (of course, I may be wrong)

As I suspected this halts at what seem that you only have practiced a bit of Taiji, a bit of Yiquan...and so on internal MA's....As I mentioned before the six directions, this you would have come to understand if you just stayed with for example the Yiquan practice and you would have understand the core and easily recognized it in other IMA's

everything wrote:Sun and Wang already gave us the answers, but no one pays any attention to anything they said for whatever reason.

Many seem not patience enough for the exercises of the IMA's. and many gives up if not served everything

An interesting way, for me and also how I was taught by the way, to look at the concept of internal is literal. It is a relative term that must be relative to something. For example, you can when pushed on your arm... move with your mind and force from the outside forearm (the yang side of the body) and respond directly where the incoming force is met... or you can respond from the yin side, the inside of the arm... try it and see the difference. this is most basic to taijiquan, but not well understood. it extrapolates infinitely from there, but I'm not going to elaborate, because it feels like I've giving away secrets. Do your own research. When asked about "internal" my teacher would draw concentric circles on a piece of paper and turn the question back to us.

I will also add, that having studied Hao style, I agree with Bao's analysis of what he sees regarding typical Sun style these days.

driftwood wrote:I'm not going to elaborate, because it feels like I've giving away secrets.

And there you have it.

giving away secrets

The further one passes the "secrets" level, the more one won't take it as a "secrets".

suckinlhbf wrote:

giving away secrets

The further one passes the "secrets" level, the more one won't take it as a "secrets".

Haven't you guys heard about the expression "Secrets guard themselves"? He who have ears to hear with... or eyes to see with... He must first have attained a certain level of achievement. For some people, you could write all the secrets on their shirt or scream them repeatedly in their ears and they still wouldn't understand.



No need trying to keep secrets. Better to just reveal as much as possible. People still have to walk the walk.

nope, the real secret is that almost everything out there is "pondered upon" bullshit!

I have never heard the phrase "secrets keep themselves" before but I really really like it. It's definitely true for tai chi in my experience.

Trick- I actually didn't state for how long that I had studied yi chuan and wu stlye tai chi for:7 years with my teacher in Brighton UK and continuously practiced since, and 5 years in the UK- I moved to France and so had to say bye bye teachers!. I am now 46 years old and have been practicing martial arts pretty much continuously since I was 13 years old, and I have the pleasure and the luxury to have a 22 students divided into two classes that I teach freely twice a week. I admit that I am only a dabbler in martial arts, but having spent at least twenty years now following (at least what I learned) as 'internal arts' I believe that my question can be considered valid, and perhaps worthy of more discussion than 'obviously you don't understand the six directions'...Have you never wondered about internal concepts outside of your discipline (if you havn't, its not a problem)? Or how they could (perhaps) be TAUGHT MORE EFFICIENTLY? Teaching should look to continually question and perhaps evolve its methods with the aim of better transmitting information- surely that is not a threat to traditional martial arts...

LDShouler wrote: be TAUGHT MORE EFFICIENTLY? Teaching should look to continually question and perhaps evolve its methods with the aim of better transmitting information- surely that is not a threat to traditional martial arts...

The "secrets guard themself" thing as Bao point out is probably a big obstacle for many. And also for sure there are teachers who do teach watered down stuff, some maybe do it to keep "secrets" and some for other reasons related. So it would seem as long as many(both students and teachers) want there to be secrets in the IMA's there will always be a search for a more "efficient" way of IMA's practice......a strange situation indeed

Chen Taiji, the original Taiji, was itself a synthesis. Chen Wanting took the 30 or so best martial arts postures from Qi Qiugangs (sp.) martial arts survey and combined them with his family's Canon Fist to create taiji. Synthesis is normal, like natural evolution, that is, nothing new
.

Learn styles, "synthesis" may be required. Go to their sources and learn kung fu, not much 'synthesis' can be done. Be an artist not a stylist.

suckinlhbf wrote:Learn styles, "synthesis" may be required. Go to their sources and learn kung fu, not much 'synthesis' can be done. Be an artist not a stylist.

Should be going back to the basic exercise model of stretch-recoil cycle.

Uncle Yeung gave out the essence of the source.

The concept of stretching was published in the Yin Shu 引书 (book of stretching) dated back to the Chu State, 704 BC to 223 BC.

The concept of recoil was coined as Hui Suo Jin 回缩劲 by Sun Lutang in his Study of Baguaquan (1917): 兩肩均往回抽住勁。此是順中求逆如卦位順行卦序逆行之意也兩肘極力往下垂勁。兩手極力一氣往前推勁。兩手心隨着兩肩極力往回縮勁.
Your shoulders have an energy of drawing in. (This is “seeking to be going against while going along”, an intention of the trigrams being in a position of going along with while in a process of going against.) Paul Brennan 2015

Stretch-Recoil Cycle came from the Non-concentric Exercise Model developed from Chinese Martial Arts that do not use brute force (concentric muscle contraction.