taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby Trick on Sun May 20, 2018 12:24 am

Bao wrote:
HotSoup wrote: If there's no teacher, the Classics won't help. In either case, its helpfulness appears overrated.


Well it’s certainly not an instruction booklet. The classics were not written to instruct non practitioners, it was written for already initiated.

I kind of agree with HotSoup on this, what's the point of reading up on something something that one already know very well? .....The initiated? you mean those ready for advanced class?......Back when I practiced Karate and just when it was time for me to try the shodan examination the teacher decided for the firs time in that clubs history there should also be a written test and we where all given a book written by an famous Japanese Karateka residing in Sweden, well we had to buy the book but it was not expensive. I thought to my self I did not begin with Karate to sit in another school bench and was quite disappointed, I took my shodan and quit 8-)
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Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby Bao on Sun May 20, 2018 1:09 am

Trick wrote:I kind of agree with HotSoup on this, what's the point of reading up on something something that one already know very well? .....The initiated? you mean those ready for advanced class?......


To understand them you would have to be literate and know the classics. You would also have had to understand what the concepts meant specifically in Tai Chi. So of course the classics were meant to sum up the main ideas of the art for the closest few disciples and friends.

As many of the texts were compiled by Wu Yuxiang he can be considered as a safe-keeper of the old art. As he was the key to a large network, Wu Yuxiang’s texts probably reach quite a few literate. Remember also that he was the teacher of Yang Chengfu after YCF’s father has passed away. Actually, I would say that Wu Yuxiang was probably more important and influential than any of the Yangs and Chens regarding the way most people today understand Tai Chi Chuan as an art.
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Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby HotSoup on Sun May 20, 2018 2:21 am

everything wrote:... it appears various style (all non Chen???) founders articulated the same art and same points.


Curious, why would you want to insert this remark, "non Chen"? Is it about what is written in the Classics? But there's nothing unknown within the Chen tradition in it. Is it about the style origins? The majority of the styles you identify as "non-Chen" were founded either by the Chen-style practitioners or their disciples. What is the point, if I may ask?
Last edited by HotSoup on Sun May 20, 2018 3:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby Yeung on Sun May 20, 2018 3:37 am

Yeung wrote:打手要言

I am skeptical about the Taijiquan skill of Paul Brennan but even Chinese practitioners would interpret some of the techniques or terms differently. In any case, I think some of the differences and theories can be verified by science and practice.
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Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby Trick on Sun May 20, 2018 5:13 am

Those who wrote the classics or their teachers did they have other classics to read from?
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Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby Bao on Sun May 20, 2018 5:50 am

Trick wrote:Those who wrote the classics or their teachers did they have other classics to read from?


Of course they had. If you were literate you had read all of the cornerstones of Chinese literature.
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Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby HotSoup on Sun May 20, 2018 6:23 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:Those who wrote the classics or their teachers did they have other classics to read from?


Of course they had. If you were literate you had read all of the cornerstones of Chinese literature.


I believe Trick is asking about other Taijiquan classics, not random literature pieces ;)
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Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby GrahamB on Sun May 20, 2018 6:36 am

"Use the mind to move energy" - first line.

Watch the stupid Jin tricks video then read this classic and it all makes sense.

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Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby Bao on Sun May 20, 2018 7:14 am

HotSoup wrote:
Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:Those who wrote the classics or their teachers did they have other classics to read from?


Of course they had. If you were literate you had read all of the cornerstones of Chinese literature.


I believe Trick is asking about other Taijiquan classics, not random literature pieces ;)


I said the cornerstones, not random literature. Every literati read the analects, book of rites, book of history etc. There are a lot to be found from them in the Tai Chi classics as well from Sun Zi.

And of course I understood the original question. I disregarded what Trick didn't put in it. How could those who wrote the first Tai Chi classics have read other Tai Chi classics? It doesn't make sense. If there were other earlier classics left when Wu Yuxing compiled the classics, as writings from Chen Wangting, then everyone would know about them. Either they never existed or they were gone long before the classics mentioned in this thread.
Last edited by Bao on Sun May 20, 2018 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby everything on Sun May 20, 2018 8:01 am

Bao wrote:
As many of the texts were compiled by Wu Yuxiang he can be considered as a safe-keeper of the old art. As he was the key to a large network, Wu Yuxiang’s texts probably reach quite a few literate. Remember also that he was the teacher of Yang Chengfu after YCF’s father has passed away. Actually, I would say that Wu Yuxiang was probably more important and influential than any of the Yangs and Chens regarding the way most people today understand Tai Chi Chuan as an art.


What I was thinking about Wu Yuxiang as well.

non-Chen

I should say the only reason I make this observation is that this Wu is very tied to Yang, Hao, Sun, not to be disparaging to or favor one style or the other. Essentially the other 3 major styles are very tied to various writings that are tied to the mysterious "salt shop" discovery. Maybe this is all from Wu (a scholar). Hmm.
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Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby Trick on Sun May 20, 2018 8:20 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:Those who wrote the classics or their teachers did they have other classics to read from?

How could those who wrote the first Tai Chi classics have read other Tai Chi classics? It doesn't make sense. If there were other earlier classics left when Wu Yuxing compiled the classics, as writings from Chen Wangting, then everyone would know about them.

Yes it wouldn't make sense. And it show that scholarly Taijiquan study is not necessary at all for mastery of Taijiquan, well maybe it is for scholars 8-)
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Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby jtan on Sun May 20, 2018 8:44 am

Trick wrote:
Bao wrote:
HotSoup wrote: If there's no teacher, the Classics won't help. In either case, its helpfulness appears overrated.


Well it’s certainly not an instruction booklet. The classics were not written to instruct non practitioners, it was written for already initiated.

I kind of agree with HotSoup on this, what's the point of reading up on something something that one already know very well? .....The initiated? you mean those ready for advanced class?......Back when I practiced Karate and just when it was time for me to try the shodan examination the teacher decided for the firs time in that clubs history there should also be a written test and we where all given a book written by an famous Japanese Karateka residing in Sweden, well we had to buy the book but it was not expensive. I thought to my self I did not begin with Karate to sit in another school bench and was quite disappointed, I took my shodan and quit 8-)


The classics are class notes/syllabus for teachers. Not just tai chi but most major systems had a curriculum to follow and graduate from. They also act as 'ideals' or goals to shoot for. To let you know what you should aim for in training. So the classics are most helpful for beginners and advanced people.
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Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby everything on Sun May 20, 2018 8:48 am

I agree mostly we don't need to read anything, especially for practical fighting skills, but here we are feeding our brains with mostly crap. So you are all saying you do this 100% correctly 100% of the time? Surely you are being quite pompous, but if not, it'd be good to learn from you (but I wouldn't choose a teacher who lacks humility).

TAIJI BOXING’S SOLO SET & PLAYING HANDS (by Hao Yueru)

太極拳不在樣式而在氣勢,不在外面而在內。平日行功走架,須研究揣摩空鬆圓活之道,要神氣鼓蕩,全身好似氣球,氣勢貴騰挪,身體有如懸空。兩手無論高低屈伸,一前一後,一左一右,皆能靈活自如。兩腿不論前進後退,左右旋轉,虛實變換,無不隨意所欲。日久功深,有不知手之舞之,足之蹈之之境。明白原理,練熟身法,善於用意,巧於運氣,到此地步,一舉一動,皆能合度,無所謂不對。
[Section 1]
Taiji Boxing lies not in the postures, but in the energy, not on the outside, but on the inside. When practicing the solo set, it is necessary to study and contemplate the methods of emptiness, relaxation, roundness, and liveliness. Your spirit and energy should be activated, your whole body seem like a balloon, energy should be ready to move, and your body seem suspended from above. Your hands, regardless of being high or low, withdrawn or extended, one forward while the other is back, or one to the left while the other is to the right, should always be able to move nimbly and smoothly. Your legs, regardless of advancing or retreating, turning to either side, or alternating between empty and full, should always follow your mind’s wishes.
Over time your skill will deepen and there will be the condition of being unaware of the movements of your hands and feet. Understand the principles, become well-versed in the body standards, perfect the use of intention, and become skillful at moving energy – when this condition is achieved, every movement can be done to the proper degree, and there will not be a moment in which anything is incorrect.
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Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby Trick on Sun May 20, 2018 9:50 am

jtan wrote:
The classics are class notes/syllabus for teachers. Not just tai chi but most major systems had a curriculum to follow and graduate from. They also act as 'ideals' or goals to shoot for. To let you know what you should aim for in training. So the classics are most helpful for beginners and advanced people.

Yes when a style becomes a "major" system some written down(nowadays also filmed/online)material might be handy for some in between their actual meeting with a teacher......Now I'm not sure but I don't think Taijiquan was a major system back when the "classics" where found in that salt shop, that might have been a kind of marketing ploy by the Wu brothers 8-) ......I don't believe in that the classics serve as an helpful tool for advanced practitioners, I can not see that at all
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Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby HotSoup on Sun May 20, 2018 10:11 am

everything wrote:So you are all saying you do this 100% correctly 100% of the time?


No, what we are saying is that the proper practice is a much more efficient way to get to the point when you "do this 100% correctly 100% of the time" compared to re-reading the Classics :D Just that..
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