taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby Trick on Sun May 20, 2018 10:15 am

everything wrote:I agree mostly we don't need to read anything, especially for practical fighting skills, but here we are feeding our brains with mostly crap. So you are all saying you do this 100% correctly 100% of the time? Surely you are being quite pompous, but if not, it'd be good to learn from you (but I wouldn't choose a teacher who lacks humility).

TAIJI BOXING’S SOLO SET & PLAYING HANDS (by Hao Yueru)

太極拳不在樣式而在氣勢,不在外面而在內。平日行功走架,須研究揣摩空鬆圓活之道,要神氣鼓蕩,全身好似氣球,氣勢貴騰挪,身體有如懸空。兩手無論高低屈伸,一前一後,一左一右,皆能靈活自如。兩腿不論前進後退,左右旋轉,虛實變換,無不隨意所欲。日久功深,有不知手之舞之,足之蹈之之境。明白原理,練熟身法,善於用意,巧於運氣,到此地步,一舉一動,皆能合度,無所謂不對。
[Section 1]
Taiji Boxing lies not in the postures, but in the energy, not on the outside, but on the inside. When practicing the solo set, it is necessary to study and contemplate the methods of emptiness, relaxation, roundness, and liveliness. Your spirit and energy should be activated, your whole body seem like a balloon, energy should be ready to move, and your body seem suspended from above. Your hands, regardless of being high or low, withdrawn or extended, one forward while the other is back, or one to the left while the other is to the right, should always be able to move nimbly and smoothly. Your legs, regardless of advancing or retreating, turning to either side, or alternating between empty and full, should always follow your mind’s wishes.
Over time your skill will deepen and there will be the condition of being unaware of the movements of your hands and feet. Understand the principles, become well-versed in the body standards, perfect the use of intention, and become skillful at moving energy – when this condition is achieved, every movement can be done to the proper degree, and there will not be a moment in which anything is incorrect.

Does Hao come off as pompous in that writing? These guys are/where not Gods, what they attained you can attain.
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 1230
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby wayne hansen on Sun May 20, 2018 10:39 am

He is just stating the basic skills for tai chi
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3148
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby everything on Sun May 20, 2018 10:43 am

HotSoup wrote:
everything wrote:So you are all saying you do this 100% correctly 100% of the time?


No, what we are saying is that the proper practice is a much more efficient way to get to the point when you "do this 100% correctly 100% of the time" compared to re-reading the Classics :D Just that..


for sure
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 4259
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby everything on Sun May 20, 2018 10:48 am

Trick wrote:
everything wrote:I agree mostly we don't need to read anything, especially for practical fighting skills, but here we are feeding our brains with mostly crap. So you are all saying you do this 100% correctly 100% of the time? Surely you are being quite pompous, but if not, it'd be good to learn from you (but I wouldn't choose a teacher who lacks humility).

TAIJI BOXING’S SOLO SET & PLAYING HANDS (by Hao Yueru)

太極拳不在樣式而在氣勢,不在外面而在內。平日行功走架,須研究揣摩空鬆圓活之道,要神氣鼓蕩,全身好似氣球,氣勢貴騰挪,身體有如懸空。兩手無論高低屈伸,一前一後,一左一右,皆能靈活自如。兩腿不論前進後退,左右旋轉,虛實變換,無不隨意所欲。日久功深,有不知手之舞之,足之蹈之之境。明白原理,練熟身法,善於用意,巧於運氣,到此地步,一舉一動,皆能合度,無所謂不對。
[Section 1]
Taiji Boxing lies not in the postures, but in the energy, not on the outside, but on the inside. When practicing the solo set, it is necessary to study and contemplate the methods of emptiness, relaxation, roundness, and liveliness. Your spirit and energy should be activated, your whole body seem like a balloon, energy should be ready to move, and your body seem suspended from above. Your hands, regardless of being high or low, withdrawn or extended, one forward while the other is back, or one to the left while the other is to the right, should always be able to move nimbly and smoothly. Your legs, regardless of advancing or retreating, turning to either side, or alternating between empty and full, should always follow your mind’s wishes.
Over time your skill will deepen and there will be the condition of being unaware of the movements of your hands and feet. Understand the principles, become well-versed in the body standards, perfect the use of intention, and become skillful at moving energy – when this condition is achieved, every movement can be done to the proper degree, and there will not be a moment in which anything is incorrect.

Does Hao come off as pompous in that writing? These guys are/where not Gods, what they attained you can attain.


unfortunately we cannot really know how good they were, but there is no way I, as a middle aged average athlete in all athletic/movement endeavors, can attain whatever they attained. still, if we can attain the actual "art", that is good. having come across unusual skill level in taijiquan, I assume these masters really were top of the world. I've met world champions in judo, cricket, national team members in soccer, have done randori with a national champion, played with top level soccer athletes, rolled with a top bjj competitor, and these athletes have truly phenomenal, unusual skill. but what they can do is not the unusual of taijiquan that is different,. there are people on the board who have competed in sports at a top level, but perhaps not at the truly elite level. it would be more interesting to hear from them. I assume those of you responding on this thread are not at that level (no offense), but if you are (say, national team level, olympian, Div 1 champion), by all means, please weigh in.

even if you are close to that level and you say that within your body, what Hao described, is what happens, I'd love to ask you a ton of questions.

even if you are mediocre athletically, and you say your movement comforms to what Hao said, please let us know.

otherwise you seem to have an unusually high opinion of your accomplishments. chances you may be experiencing what's described by this Dunning Kruger effect.
Image
Last edited by everything on Sun May 20, 2018 10:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 4259
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby yeniseri on Sun May 20, 2018 11:09 am

HotSoup wrote:
Bao wrote:
It's interesting because these "classic" writings mainly come from Wu Yuxiang, who studied with Yang Luchang and also Chen Qingping (Zhaobao style). Hao learned from Wu style, and Sun Lutang learned from Hao style.


Chen Qingping also practiced Chen Small Frame and this is what Wu Yuxiang’s style is based upon. They are very similar. There might be a Zhaobao influence, but not more than Yang. CQP probably had quite a good Chen influence on Zhaobao style. Sun Lutang learned the old Wu before the modern Hao. But he also studied with the Yang family. IMO later Sun style was also influenced by the philosophy of Yang style.


TBH, it's doubtful that Chen Qingping practiced anything but Chen Xiaojia. If any sort of MA had existed in Zhaobao town before he moved in, its almost impossible to find its traces in what is called Zhaobao Taijiquan nowadays. Good Zhaobao Taiji with proven lineage transmission, like below, is almost indistinguishable from other Xiaojia lines:



Excellent point! My own feeling is that Chen Xiaojia of Chen Qingping is a 'true' specimen of Chen family style but when it moved to the town of Zhaobao, its integration/synthesis took on a unique flavour that allowed He family style with Li/Chen?Shaolin to be more of what the Classics meant or experiential understanding of what the art should have been. I am conscious that back then the descriptive of taijiquan was not yet carved in stone but its realit all shows the Chen origin despite the Wang Z(h)ongye hagiographic totem reflection.
When fascism comes to US America, It will be wrapped in the US flag and waving a cross. An astute patriot
yeniseri
Wuji
 
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:49 pm
Location: USA

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby HotSoup on Sun May 20, 2018 11:10 am

Worth also noting that the Dunning-Kruger effect is not exclusively applicable to how one feels about their skills, but also to the others' understanding of the training methodology ;)
Last edited by HotSoup on Sun May 20, 2018 11:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
HotSoup
Mingjing
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:20 am

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby oragami_itto on Sun May 20, 2018 12:01 pm

The classics are confirmatory and definitive. If it's not in the classics, it's not Taijiquan.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1035
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby Trick on Sun May 20, 2018 12:05 pm

everything wrote:
everything wrote:I agree mostly we don't need to read anything, especially for practical fighting skills, but here we are feeding our brains with mostly crap. So you are all saying you do this 100% correctly 100% of the time? Surely you are being quite pompous, but if not, it'd be good to learn from you (but I wouldn't choose a teacher who lacks humility).

TAIJI BOXING’S SOLO SET & PLAYING HANDS (by Hao Yueru)

太極拳不在樣式而在氣勢,不在外面而在內。平日行功走架,須研究揣摩空鬆圓活之道,要神氣鼓蕩,全身好似氣球,氣勢貴騰挪,身體有如懸空。兩手無論高低屈伸,一前一後,一左一右,皆能靈活自如。兩腿不論前進後退,左右旋轉,虛實變換,無不隨意所欲。日久功深,有不知手之舞之,足之蹈之之境。明白原理,練熟身法,善於用意,巧於運氣,到此地步,一舉一動,皆能合度,無所謂不對。
[Section 1]
Taiji Boxing lies not in the postures, but in the energy, not on the outside, but on the inside. When practicing the solo set, it is necessary to study and contemplate the methods of emptiness, relaxation, roundness, and liveliness. Your spirit and energy should be activated, your whole body seem like a balloon, energy should be ready to move, and your body seem suspended from above. Your hands, regardless of being high or low, withdrawn or extended, one forward while the other is back, or one to the left while the other is to the right, should always be able to move nimbly and smoothly. Your legs, regardless of advancing or retreating, turning to either side, or alternating between empty and full, should always follow your mind’s wishes.
Over time your skill will deepen and there will be the condition of being unaware of the movements of your hands and feet. Understand the principles, become well-versed in the body standards, perfect the use of intention, and become skillful at moving energy – when this condition is achieved, every movement can be done to the proper degree, and there will not be a moment in which anything is incorrect.



unfortunately we cannot really know how good they were, but there is no way I, as a middle aged average athlete in all athletic/movement endeavors, can attain whatever they attained. still, if we can attain the actual "art", that is good. having come across unusual skill level in taijiquan, I assume these masters really were top of the world. I've met world champions in judo, cricket, national team members in soccer, have done randori with a national champion, played with top level soccer athletes, rolled with a top bjj competitor, and these athletes have truly phenomenal, unusual skill. but what they can do is not the unusual of taijiquan that is different,. there are people on the board who have competed in sports at a top level, but perhaps not at the truly elite level. it would be more interesting to hear from them. I assume those of you responding on this thread are not at that level (no offense), but if you are (say, national team level, olympian, Div 1 champion), by all means, please weigh in.

even if you are close to that level and you say that within your body, what Hao described, is what happens, I'd love to ask you a ton of questions.

even if you are mediocre athletically, and you say your movement comforms to what Hao said, please let us know.

otherwise you seem to have an unusually high opinion of your accomplishments. chances you may be experiencing what's described by this Dunning Kruger effect.

He he,I almost feel embarrassed to write it, two times national team kata champion, finalist a couple of times in individual kata :o ...in the fighting category I sucked big time 8-) ....Anyway the kata thing seem fittingly here since Hao talk about "Taiji boxing' solo set". Back then during my kata escapades I was much more fit with high stylished kicks and jumps,visually crisp and powerful techniques, yes I had an good "Hara/tandem(Dantiean) centeredness but nothing at all as the feelings as described in Hao's writing in the quote above.......That came later after many years of Taijiquan and Yiquan practice(should probably have come quicker if I where a clever guy)and actually it is as Wayne points out, Hao just explaining the basic skills gained from Taiji practice
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 1230
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby Trick on Sun May 20, 2018 12:18 pm

oragami_itto wrote:The classics are confirmatory and definitive. If it's not in the classics, it's not Taijiquan.

Yes for sure. But as I understand the (Taiji) classics where not know(still hidden under a pile of salt 8-) ) when Yang Luchan came to fame, and his GongFu was given the name Taijiquan(by a scholar),how does that work out?
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 1230
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby oragami_itto on Sun May 20, 2018 12:45 pm

Trick wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:The classics are confirmatory and definitive. If it's not in the classics, it's not Taijiquan.

Yes for sure. But as I understand the (Taiji) classics where not know(still hidden under a pile of salt 8-) ) when Yang Luchan came to fame, and his GongFu was given the name Taijiquan(by a scholar),how does that work out?

They surely fail to capture the true depth and breadth of his brilliance.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1035
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby everything on Sun May 20, 2018 4:36 pm

Trick, that is cool. I know people on here don't go around bragging about these things usually, but everyone seems pretty hard to impress. Every video sucks (according to comments), everyone's teacher is better than everyone else's, and so on. I don't consider that I have these basic skills. Not false modesty, just the truth. If I attained national level in something (anything), it might be different. I imagine at least you know exactly how good you are in various arts or sports. I agree about the should have been a more clever guy bit, though. Alas. It's ok.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 4259
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby Trick on Mon May 21, 2018 1:04 am

everything wrote:Trick, that is cool. I know people on here don't go around bragging about these things usually, but everyone seems pretty hard to impress. Every video sucks (according to comments), everyone's teacher is better than everyone else's, and so on. I don't consider that I have these basic skills. Not false modesty, just the truth. If I attained national level in something (anything), it might be different. I imagine at least you know exactly how good you are in various arts or sports. I agree about the should have been a more clever guy bit, though. Alas. It's ok.

I do hope I have not come around saying someone's video sucks, if so I apologize sincerely...I do believe that if one sincerely want something one will get it some way or another. In Voidisyinyang's thread you seem to honestly ask him questions even though his writing/journey seem somewhat troubled, his thread made me to think about a book I read long time ago "The Alchemist" which tells a story of searching and how one might be lead on a long and arduous journey in the search and eventually one might find that the "treasure" was all along there on ones own doorstep(my journey to understand the basics of Taijiquan was long, but when I got that aha moment I realized I could have gotten it more sooner, but maybe there's a reason for the "unnecessary" journeys we go through)....It's a nice little book, but I'm afraid I just gave away the plot somewhat.......However we often tend to make things a little more complicated than they are.
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 1230
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby Giles on Mon May 21, 2018 8:49 am

To echo or rephrase what a few people here have already pointed out:

- There's nothing in the Tai Chi Classics that you can successfully or accurately put into practice without lots of expert tuition and correction. As a stand-alone resource, they are fairly useless for a learner. Every statement can be interpreted or 'understood' in a huge number of ways, and most of them will be totally out of whack in practice, will lead you off on the wrong paths.
To give one example, the various exhortations and metaphors about bringing the spine into alignment with the rest of the body and with gravity are clear in themselves, but 99.9% of tai chi beginners (and at least 70% of people with a few years' practice behind them) will still lean a little backwards when moving and have a hyperlordosis (hollow back). They'll be convinced they are 'straight' and extended in their backs, but only constant expert hands-on correction will help them get it more or less right.

- On the other hand, there can be more than one precise correct way of interpreting something in the classics. Just compare the tuishou of specific skilled practitioners in, for instance, the Cheng Man Ching line of Yang style, the Ma Yueh Liang line or other lines of Wu style and the Huang line of Yang style. All definitely good in practice and under pressure, all (to my understanding) in line with the Classics, essential things in common, but with some clear differences in posture, techniques and tactics.

- I think the Classics are great as a reminder, a theory-based quality control mechanism and as a stimulus for one's own training (and teaching) once you've started making some progress. They help me keep on track (maybe, sort of...) in my own training. They constantly take on new meanings for me as I progress (maybe, sort of...), but for me these meanings are resonant, fruitful and helpful. The previously understood meanings are usually not totally discarded, but gain in depth, are modified. On the basis of experience, of course, of what doesn't work or is no longer satisfactory, what works to some extent, and what works better.
And of course in the future I'll look back and shake my head at myself in many respects, as I now do about myself some years ago, but that's how life should be. I know for sure that however far I might progress, the Classics will remain many steps ahead.
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Huajing
 
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby Steve James on Mon May 21, 2018 2:01 pm

Well, the tcc Classics were written by scholars, but they were only translating the oral transmission in a scholarly way. One can argue that they are unnecessary or basic, but what they can ensure is consistency. I think the tendency is for teachers to seek out ways their teaching differs from the Classics. YLC didn't write any Classics. I don't think it's necessary for a student to even know that they exist. I think it's vitally important that any teacher knows them because it should be he or she who passes them on. If a teacher thinks they're unnecessary, that's fine. It's akin to making up one's own art.

Otoh, the Classics say that what is necessary for proficiency is "study and practice." None say or suggest that reading is at all sufficient for gaining any skill.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16918
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: taiji classics playing hands, part 1

Postby everything on Mon May 21, 2018 5:27 pm

Trick wrote:
I do hope I have not come around saying someone's video sucks, if so I apologize sincerely


oh no, it's not you specifically. it's mostly the rest of us that seem always hard to impress. we've mostly been around a long, long time, so it's understandable.

...I do believe that if one sincerely want something one will get it some way or another. In Voidisyinyang's thread you seem to honestly ask him questions even though his writing/journey seem somewhat troubled, his thread made me to think about a book I read long time ago "The Alchemist" which tells a story of searching and how one might be lead on a long and arduous journey in the search and eventually one might find that the "treasure" was all along there on ones own doorstep(my journey to understand the basics of Taijiquan was long, but when I got that aha moment I realized I could have gotten it more sooner, but maybe there's a reason for the "unnecessary" journeys we go through)....It's a nice little book, but I'm afraid I just gave away the plot somewhat.......However we often tend to make things a little more complicated than they are.


true true very true. true of life in general!
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 4259
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests

cron