Yang Style Question

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Yang Style Question

Postby Appledog on Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:00 pm

Does Yang Style have the saying 'hands leading the body' and 'body leading the hands', and if so, can you give an example from the form? Thanks!
Last edited by Appledog on Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:30 pm

Sayings around this idea that come to mind:

"The power starts in the legs is directed by the waist and manifests in the hands"
"The waist is the commander"
"It has nothing to do with hands"
"The body is a hand"
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:58 pm

Appledog wrote:Does Yang Style have the saying 'hands leading the body' and 'body leading the hands', and if so, can you give an example from the form? Thanks!

For

- power, your body leading the hands.
- speed, your hands leading the body.

This is a general CMA principle. It has nothing to do with style. No matter what CMA style you may train, when

- a mosquito flies over your head, you smash it with both your hands, that's hands leading body.
- you push a car, that's body leading hands.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby I-mon on Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:37 pm

Get outta here with that common sense, John!
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Bao on Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:23 am

Some people regard "cai" as a fast jerking movement. They have put this "energy" ( ::) ) into the category of the hands leading the action.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:35 am

Appledog wrote:Does Yang Style have the saying 'hands leading the body' and 'body leading the hands', and if so, can you give an example from the form? Thanks!


Wu style is very close to yang depending on linage many of the concepts are the same...

Teacher Gao talks about the mind leading the body, the body leading the mind, the how and why of this interchange.
He shows and talks about using this to be able to hit from the knees, dantian, yao, ect any place that he can make the interchange "yin/yang" happen.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIULbQ-Hh6g
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby LaoDan on Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:17 am

I have written an article about the hands leading the body, but it has not been submitted yet (it will eventually be posted on Slanted Flying). While I have not come across a Yang style source that explicitly states the concept, it is given in Chen Ziming’s (陳子明) 1932 book on Chen style (as translated by Paul Brennan): “This art [Taijiquan] is entirely a matter of using your mind to move your hand, using your hand to guide your elbow, using your elbow to guide your shoulder, and using your shoulder to guide your body. In the case of practicing the solo set: the body leads the hand. In the case of partner practice: the hand leads the body.”

The hands leading the body during partner training is implicit in the Taijiquan classic attributed to Wang Zongyue (王宗岳) which states (as translated by Paul Brennan), “The basic of basics is to forget about your plans and simply respond to your opponent.” If one is simply responding to the opponent, then the point of contact with them must be initiating one’s responses, and therefore that the hands lead the body.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Bao on Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:15 am

If one is simply responding to the opponent, then the point of contact with them must be initiating one’s responses, and therefore that the hands lead the body.


When having contact, IME it's better to connect to the opponent's centerline and feet. Then you need to adjust according to his movements by using your own center.

But even before contact you should always adapt and mirror your opponent's movements.

If the body or hand leads the movement depends. If you don't connect directly to his center or balance you don't need whole body movement.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:28 am

If one is simply responding to the opponent, then the point of contact with them must be initiating one’s responses, and therefore that the hands lead the body.


You definitely do not want to lead or be lead by the point of contact.

Imho, neither the hands nor the body leads. Yi leads Qi leads Li/Jing. Yi should be deep in the opponent, we aren't moving a hand, we're moving a body. Mizner likes to say "I've got your feet". Liang De Hua also has a video about not letting the mind get bound up at the point of contact. Those are both good references to some of the idea which has had a profound an affect on my practice as anything else I've encountered and a big part of what the internal means
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby LaoDan on Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:10 am

Following the opponent, of course, does not mean that one should cede control to them. Likewise, letting the hands lead does not mean that you will let them lead you off target (center/spine/feet control). One’s own hands lead one’s own body even though one is “following” the opponent.

If you are following the opponent and they try to lead you off target, then you could spin around their arm, for example. But this is still having the “hand lead” since the pivot/spin would have been initiated by the opponent’s action in trying to lead you off target. One does not need to chase their hand! Following while in control means that one does not chase their hand, and when they present an opening for an attack...

The statement that one has the opponent’s feet is fine, but since that is typically obtained through control of the spine (or center), I prefer the following:
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:14 am

Yielding/folding is an offensive move
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:38 pm

The terms are loosely defined and applied to subjective understanding so disagreement is easy to find. I agree that following does not imply one is being lead.

The main point I'm trying to make is that there is no separation of hands and body to my understanding. Neither leads the other, they function as a unit. What part of a record leads the rotation? The spindle drives the movement, and is by that comparison equivalent to the legs. The hole being the waist.

Sure for specific Jin maybe there's some different english on different parts of a movement, but speaking broadly the art addresses the concept in the classics as, the power starts in the legs, is controlled by the waist and is expressed in the hands, and upper and lower move in unity. Something other than that might be fine kung fu but it's not what Taijiquan is striving towards.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:37 pm

Feet first is for training
Hands first is for combat
Yet the feet should arrive before the hand does its job
This is one of the hardest things to teach the non fighter
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:18 am

wayne hansen wrote:Yet the feet should arrive before the hand does its job


This, among other details, is what I was shown behind closed doors by several masters in CMC's lineage, and one of the keys to generating fajin in Yang style.

You, sir, are very generous by giving this away in a public forum. ;)
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Trick on Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:22 am

C.J.W. wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Yet the feet should arrive before the hand does its job


This, among other details, is what I was shown behind closed doors by several masters in CMC's lineage, and one of the keys to generating fajin in Yang style.

You, sir, are very generous by giving this away in a public forum. ;)

Is that supposed to be a secret?
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