Yang Style Question

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Yang Style Question

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:14 am

marvin8 wrote:It sounds natural. In boxing, power involves the weight transfer from one hip to the other. One doesn't need to step (both feet on the ground) to deliver power, just shift the weight by folding the hip (open/close). When taking a step, it is still the weight shift that is important, not when the foot lands. Every punch doesn't need to be a power punch (e.g., set up or combinations).


You mean this isn't how boxing works?
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:31 am

oragami_itto wrote:
marvin8 wrote:It sounds natural. In boxing, power involves the weight transfer from one hip to the other. One doesn't need to step (both feet on the ground) to deliver power, just shift the weight by folding the hip (open/close). When taking a step, it is still the weight shift that is important, not when the foot lands. Every punch doesn't need to be a power punch (e.g., set up or combinations).


You mean this isn't how boxing works?

No.

And, non-CMAist learn the weight shift, rotation, technique, body alignment and connection in the beginning classes. In the intermediate classes, one learns to apply these principles in partner drills and against movable targets with realistic attacks.

So those CMAists with "the real good, secret Taiji --or any high-level IMA for that matter" that believe they have a secret are in a world of hurt when they challenge average MMAists, such as Xu Xiaodong.

Some high level IMA people (e.g., Chenjiagou) realized this and added these methods to their fighting curriculum. :D
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:57 pm

Trick wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Yang Jun is the grandson of Yang Chengfu (杨澄甫)

Great grandson ?

Yes. Great, great grandson:
Image

Trick wrote:
Bao wrote:
I-mon wrote:Does it just mean that all of your weight is committed to one side, so you're very easy to unbalance or throw?


No, you can have all weight on one leg as long as you don't get stuck or lock yourself in that kind of posture. Look at Tai Chi with following step for instance, there you mostly end the posture with the whole weight on one leg. Double weighted just means the inability to change. There are a few ways you can screw up things for yourself. If someone pushes you, or (more likely) try to throw you, and you put yourself into a position where you are unable to move or go against with strength, this is being double weighted. Distinguishing yin and yang, empty and solid will help. But you need to adjust to your opponents movements in a way so you can always change between yin/yang and empty/solid.

Yes this what I had in mind when I wrote "clumsy and non harmonious move", thanks. It's quite a "beautiful" feeling whether being led into it or being the leading guy 8-)

Yes. It is important to know one's opponent, too.

charles wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:If you don't see it, chances are you haven't been exposed to this type of movements and do not yet fully understand double-heaviness -- and how to avoid it.


One of the interesting questions that goes hand and hand with this is, how, in your style is yin and yang, empty and full, separated/distinguished? :o

I agree. How do you recognize when the opponent is double heavy? What situations is the opponent double weighted? How do you lead opponent there (set up)?
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:27 pm

C.J.W. wrote:Just because my feet have landed, it doesn't mean that my legs are locked or that the rest of my body stops moving. ;)

When you block a punch, do you have to

- move your foot?
- always coordinate your elbow with your knee?

The answer is you don't have to. The reason is you are in defense mode and you are not trying to

- cover distance, and
- generate maximum power.

When you try to cover distance and generate maximum power (such as a punch to your opponent's face), do you have the luxury to land your foot first and your fist arrive later, your punch may be just 1/10 second too slow and your opponent already has moved back.

To coordinate hand and foot is not that easy. Even the grand master level may not be able to achieve it. In the following clip, you can see his foot landed before his punch completed.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:51 pm

marvin8 wrote:
So those CMAists with "the real good, secret Taiji --or any high-level IMA for that matter" that believe they have a secret are in a world of hurt when they challenge average MMAists, such as Xu Xiaodong.

Some high level IMA people (e.g., Chenjiagou) realized this and added these methods to their fighting curriculum. :D


Yep, it worked in the past, it works behind closed doors, just doesn't seem to do too well in public.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:33 pm

marvin8 wrote:So those CMAists with "the real good, secret Taiji --or any high-level IMA for that matter" that believe they have a secret are in a world of hurt when they challenge average MMAists, such as Xu Xiaodong.

Some high level IMA people (e.g., Chenjiagou) realized this and added these methods to their fighting curriculum. :D



You mean guys like Chen Zhiqiang and his students who practice Chen Taiji in the morning and then put on their Muy Thai shorts in the afternoon for some Sanda after pumping iron in the gym? ;)

I do feel that IMA contains superior means of utilizing the body. That does not, however, automatically means it's more combat-efficient or a magic pill that would turn you into an invincible fighter in 10 days with a money-back guarantee; you'd still need to spend hours a day on internal conditioning and, more importantly, SPARRING and FIGHTING in order to learn how to apply it against real resistance. Without it, you are still doomed even against people whose arts and techniques are less sophisticated but have more experience in fighting. The practitioner's own level of physical fitness can be a decisive factor too.

Think of this way: Let's say IMA is a perfectly-engineered fighting knife, and external arts a letter opener.

Now, if you give the perfectly-engineered fighting knife to an average 70-year-old grandpa, and have him engage in combat with a 25-year-old Kali expert armed with the letter opener, who do you think will go down first? :-X :P
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:00 pm

johnwang wrote:To coordinate hand and foot is not that easy. Even the grand master level may not be able to achieve it. In the following clip, you can see his foot landed before his punch completed.



Grandmaster Han also knew Taiji, didn't he? Have you considered the possibility that what he is doing in the clip is not a mistake, but the way it should be? ;)

John, you are a great guy and I respect your for your skill and knowledge in Shuaijiao as well as your no-nonsense approach to training. But if there's one thing I've learned after being a member of this forum for nearly 20 years -- and reading your posts for about the last 15 -- is that discussing IMA with you always leads to nowhere because your perspective on CMA is already too deeply seated.

My sincere advice to you, really, is still to go meet some good Taiji guys and specifically ask them about this particular foot and hand issue.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:05 pm

lets see, :-\

I like the way this letter opener steps


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnG7PWGrx20&t=23s
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:18 pm

C.J.W. wrote:It is also what distinguishes Taiji from many other styles of MAs because, as I stated in an earlier post, the vast majority of MAists believe that the hands and the feet should arrive "at the same time" in order to observe six harmonies and achieve maximum power

Why limit oneself if one is at master level? Drop/fall-step, stop-step and anything in between and beyond is not on the master's repertoire?
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:25 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Trick wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Yang Jun is the grandson of Yang Chengfu (杨澄甫)

Great grandson ?

Yes. Great, great grandson:
Image

Yes I knew there where something great about him :) 8-)
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby LaoDan on Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:54 am

marvin8 wrote:
charles wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:If you don't see it, chances are you haven't been exposed to this type of movements and do not yet fully understand double-heaviness -- and how to avoid it.


One of the interesting questions that goes hand and hand with this is, how, in your style is yin and yang, empty and full, separated/distinguished? :o

I agree. How do you recognize when the opponent is double heavy? What situations is the opponent double weighted? How do you lead opponent there (set up)?

To me, double weighting, like others have stated, is about losing changeability. At the point of contact, this would be like touching a side of a cube (flat = double weighted) in contrast to a sphere (round = changeable). Now a cube can have a quality of changeability if the point of contact was at an edge or a corner, and a sphere can lose its changeability if it deflates/collapses and the point of contact penetrates inside the outer circumference of the sphere (no longer having the point of contact the farthest point). Changeability is about being able to have Yin+Yang at the point of contact rather than having Yin+Yin (deficiencies, collapsing...) or Yang+Yang (excesses, resisting...).

In the feet this is a little less easy to explain since all of the joints between the point of contact and the feet contribute to the changeability. But basically, things like bracing (resisting...) will be a noticeably fixed and unchangeable response that I would point to as being double weighted (regardless of weight distribution between the two feet).
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby middleway on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:34 am

To me, double weighting, like others have stated, is about losing changeability. At the point of contact, this would be like touching a side of a cube (flat = double weighted) in contrast to a sphere (round = changeable). Now a cube can have a quality of changeability if the point of contact was at an edge or a corner, and a sphere can lose its changeability if it deflates/collapses and the point of contact penetrates inside the outer circumference of the sphere (no longer having the point of contact the farthest point). Changeability is about being able to have Yin+Yang at the point of contact rather than having Yin+Yin (deficiencies, collapsing...) or Yang+Yang (excesses, resisting...).

In the feet this is a little less easy to explain since all of the joints between the point of contact and the feet contribute to the changeability. But basically, things like bracing (resisting...) will be a noticeably fixed and unchangeable response that I would point to as being double weighted (regardless of weight distribution between the two feet).


This. Excellent description and the same as my understanding of the term. I am currently writing an article on some of the points above, so it is nice to see it so well summarised.

IMO the idea is called 'Double weighting' because when you are not changeable (cannot use Pairing in my description of the process) you inevitably become responsible for the opponent’s 'weight' (or force) as well as your own. Hence, doubling the weight you are responsible for.

In the solo practice we can inadvertently train ourselves to limit our ability to ‘change’ when interacting with another person. Usually this is manifested in un conscious tension, moving outside of the optimum range for the joints to easily rotate or change angle, collapsing the structure (most notably seen in the knee or elbow), Locking joint angles (moving like a robot), etc etc. So it is something that can, ultimately be applied to the legs or feet, but as said above doesn’t really represent where the weight is distributed between them.

thanks.
Last edited by middleway on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:36 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby Bao on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:51 am

In the feet... But basically, things like bracing (resisting...) will be a noticeably fixed and unchangeable response that I would point to as being double weighted


True. Many Tai Chi practitioners tend to lock their stance. Maybe lack of practicing footwork and too much focus on stationary PH might be the reason.

[general reflection, not meant as response:]
But having mobility still doesn't mean that you can not be double weighted. Lack of timing, and lack of following & adapting skill is a far greater reason IMO.

.... And again: When the foot is put down is something different from how the foot is coordinated with the hand when striking/issuing. There are many Yang stylists that propose a direct connection between hand and foot, and even between finger and toe.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby middleway on Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 am

But having mobility still doesn't mean that you can not be double weighted. Lack of timing, and lack of following & adapting skill is a far greater reason IMO.


I completely agree. I like the term lack of 'Change'. This is something i heard from a Ba Gua Master, it was framed around 'change' being the root of mobility, timing, speed, tempo, adaption etc. They are all manifestations of 'change', both mental and physical.
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Re: Yang Style Question

Postby LaoDan on Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:21 am

Bao wrote:Many Tai Chi practitioners tend to lock their stance. Maybe lack of practicing footwork and too much focus on stationary PH might be the reason.

It does seem like many TJQ practitioners forget about the quality of “like lowering oneself into a chair” when they practice PH, instead primarily bracing, locking, resisting... The lowering/absorbing quality in the legs activates the Yin (flexor muscles) as opposed to just having the Yang (extensor muscles), therefore producing Yin+Yang rather than just having Yang+Yang. One should be able to pull/sink into the legs as well as push/expand, regardless of how low or high one’s stance is. We want to retain the ability to do either (which produces the “springiness” that we want in the legs), at any time, rather than just resisting/projecting from the legs.
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