Empty Force

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Empty Force

Postby origami_itto on Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:20 am

No clue who he is and don't speak Chinese, just saying that it looks like fakery or delusion. I would love nothing more than to meet someone who could change my mind regards this no touch nonsense but so far I've been out of luck
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Re: Empty Force

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:38 am

apologies to the OP :-\


enjoyed reading your write up, just wondered about the title and your understanding which you took time to clarify.
thanks ;)

I wont post anymore on this topic...

oragami_itto wrote:No clue who he is and don't speak Chinese, just saying that it looks like fakery or delusion. I would love nothing more than to meet someone who could change my mind regards this no touch nonsense but so far I've been out of luck


completely understand...

The teacher is head of the northern Wu style btw.

not here to change minds....only ones self can do that....

translation by one of my students..
much of what is translated has been talked about on this site.
He explains it using his verbiage, when I talk or explain things I try to use physics
as much as possible in order hopefully to make it more clear.



Time stamp: 0..1:0:
Need to know what "TaiChi" means in order to learn it well.
TaiChi means: "no pole" (Field/Circle/Empty) which generates "poles" (YingYang/In & out/Body).
The core of TaiChi Quan is to interchange the act of Field affecting body and body reacting to field.

the question one might ask is what is the field he talks about....
Ying & Yang are two faces of one thing, cannot be separated.

1:0 ..1:25:
When we contact, we consist of the "no pole" (combine our fields?), if he is Yang, then I will be the Ying; vice versa.
I can hit him by breaking his own Ying & Yang.

1:26..1:36
I can hit him by my internal as outside is hard, expand my internal out.

1:37..1:53
I can hit him by my outside, go to my inside then hit him by my outside.
When he came in, I am Ying, then become Yang. I am Yang, then become Ying.
It is all about the ying/yang change.

1:54..2:20
When he touch me, I can use my circle to hit him; use my center to hit him; my center expanded to hit him.

2:21..2:55
I can also hit him by changing curve to straight, by my knee, by my hip by expansion, by my Dantian, by my waist due to loosing my shoulder and back to my waist,

2:56..3:30
I can hit him by my shoulder, shoulder sinks to my YongQuan (on my foot).
I can hit him by one finger softly. When I touch him, I grab his foot root and hit his foot.
The change of Ying/Yang is layer by layer with angle.

3:31..4:11
I do my form to have my field first, then follow the field, change my shape to bring in my field, I move within my field.

4:12..4:39
My single foot is not only support my weight, also can farjin. This is due to expansion/compressing; i.e. ying/yang.


Most if not all has been talked about on this site with many agreeing to what is written, but not shown...every time its shown
its the same reactions the same comments....every time...


The clip has been talked about before...My take regardless of what one thinks of the demo is whether it follows the theory used to explain it, and does what is seen hold true to the theory....once one understands this a lot of what is seen might make some sense... keeping in mind context and demo...

how its used is another matter...
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Re: Empty Force

Postby Peacedog on Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:55 am

Mark Rasmus is the Westerner I've seen do the most work with this. You can find his channel on Vimeo.

In Hermetics the no touch version of this is viewed as an effect leveraging mental energy. I've never been able to do this except accidentally. Those who can do it with regularity maintain that it is something that people have various levels of receptivity towards. The mechanics of this are based off the fact that all people have a unique energetic pattern. If you can "catch" this pattern you can use it to separate their subtle bodies and it will make them bounce or fall. The more familiarity you have with someone the easier it is to do irrespective of any programmed behavior that is often seen with students. Now doing this quickly, with a stranger and to a degree it has any martial applicability at all is very difficult to do.

As for the touching people and making them fly business lots of ways exist to do that from the purely mechanical to the highly esoteric.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby Appledog on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:20 pm

Hello, I'd like to maintain a 'cool post count' of 108 posts. This particular post has gone beyond that number and has therefore expired.

I'm sorry if you were looking for some old information but I'll do my best to answer you if you send me a DM with a question in it.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby Peacedog on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:48 pm

It's definitely not a tai chi thing. Honestly, I've seen mesmerists and any number of people from non-tai chi lineages do this as well.

The training requires quite a bit of sensitivity on the part of the practitioner to pull off and really clear technique transmission. Again, anyone interested in this stuff should definately check out Ramus' video work on Vimeo.

He is the only person I've met who has bothered to clearly explain how this is done. Not saying other methods do not exist, just saying he actually explains his.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:50 pm

Appledog wrote:The problem with empty force is there doesn't seem to be a way to approach it within the bounds of Tai Chi. And, if people aren't willing to discuss the training methods that just reveals the impasse out in the open.

My theory is, no one talks about it because to talk about it would be to define it out of existence. The methods have been explored; we're no longer talking about things we haven't done yet. It isn't that people have trained and not gotten results either. They have gotten results; just not results which include empty force. And it isn't as if it has never been mentioned by famous masters. It has; Wang Xiang-zhai is famously quoted as saying that the emission of qi outside the body is preposterous. Plenty of other people have commented about it. It is at best a feint, a trick, and if you want to take the writings of masters on faith it doesn't work against anyone with real skills. I wouldn't know -- I've never met anyone who even tried to use empty force on me. Not that I have any real skills. But that no one has ever even tried.

So we're left with the whole of tai chi on one hand, and an undiscussed notion of empty force on the other. Apparently never the twain shall meet. It is fine if I don't know what I am talking about when it comes to empty force, but it's a little too late to say I don't know what I am talking about with regards to Tai Chi.
It would be more correct to say you speak from your experience just I speak from mine. I may have experienced things you have not which I tend to view it as levels of understanding...

The absolute best you could posit is that empty force is a side-transmission alongside normal tai chi and it is only taught to certain people; for whatever reason; perhaps people who don't rock the boat too much on forums ;-) or perhaps only to the heads of the style. Yet that would be an admission that everything I have said is correct. It isn't a thing possible to learn. 'You cannot get there from here'.

For example, since you mentioned the Wu style--in Wu style there are six stages. Shape, or form, Stance, or power, Will (your attention), Chi, Jing and Shen. In particular the qi-jing-shen development should be well-understood as a product almost exclusively of form and push hands training. Like learning to play an instrument; you no longer consciously have to think about each individual finger position and you can play with the music a little. So I would first ask, where is empty force in this well-known progression? With those I trained with. We used skin, hair, air. The touch becoming progressively lighter and lighter as ones understanding and ability developed. I really have the feeling that there is no wiggle room in this discussion; either the methods are there and they don't work because no one is getting them,There has to be a certain level of commonality and understanding before their can really be a discussion. In most cases it never gets past "is it real or not" or they aren't there but somehow part of some secret secondary transmission alongside the rest of the art, which is a capitulation to my original point.


You write a lot.

So In essence you're saying a Taiji teacher who teaches Taiji Is not
The teacher a master of wu style is wrong, but you are correct ?
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Re: Empty Force

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:58 pm

Peacedog wrote:It's definitely not a tai chi thing. Honestly, I've seen mesmerists and any number of people from non-tai chi lineages do this as well.

The training requires quite a bit of sensitivity on the part of the practitioner to pull off and really clear technique transmission. Again, anyone interested in this stuff should definately check out Ramus' video work on Vimeo.

He is the only person I've met who has bothered to clearly explain how this is done. Not saying other methods do not exist, just saying he actually explains his.


And you know its not a taiji thing how?

With out understanding the bases by which its said to work
and using this to understand how it works you'll never get to why it works.

the fact that others can do this from different disciplines does not mean its the same...
On the other hand I've met taiji teachers who can do this from different areas
they all tend to use the same verbiage and demo the same skill sets..

just another one of those taiji teachers who doesn't teach it but does.
Met this teacher he is interesting he teachers in taipei


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMz64FbSIts
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Re: Empty Force

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:01 pm

Peacedog wrote:He is the only person I've met who has bothered to clearly explain how this is done.

You can make yourself to walk like zombie as the following:

- Stay in a dark room.
- Keep you feet in small base.
- Tell yourself don't think about your feet and Dantien.
- Try to look at your eyes through the back of your head by your imagination.
- When your body start to move, let it flow, and try not to stop it.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby Appledog on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:48 pm

Hello, I'd like to maintain a 'cool post count' of 108 posts. This particular post has gone beyond that number and has therefore expired.

I'm sorry if you were looking for some old information but I'll do my best to answer you if you send me a DM with a question in it.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby Peacedog on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:57 pm

Windwalker,

What I'm saying is that it isn't exclusively a tai chi thing. It seems to be a methodology unto itself that shows up in tai chi and other systems.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby taiwandeutscher on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:11 pm

windwalker wrote:
Peacedog wrote:It's definitely not a tai chi thing. Honestly, I've seen mesmerists and any number of people from non-tai chi lineages do this as well.

The training requires quite a bit of sensitivity on the part of the practitioner to pull off and really clear technique transmission. Again, anyone interested in this stuff should definately check out Ramus' video work on Vimeo.

He is the only person I've met who has bothered to clearly explain how this is done. Not saying other methods do not exist, just saying he actually explains his.


And you know its not a taiji thing how?

With out understanding the bases by which its said to work
and using this to understand how it works you'll never get to why it works.

the fact that others can do this from different disciplines does not mean its the same...
On the other hand I've met taiji teachers who can do this from different areas
they all tend to use the same verbiage and demo the same skill sets..

just another one of those taiji teachers who doesn't teach it but does.
Met this teacher he is interesting he teachers in taipei


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMz64FbSIts


BTW, that is a former teacher of Tim Cartmell (?). Very interesting, how teachers do develop thru the years, lol!
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Re: Empty Force

Postby yeniseri on Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:08 pm

The proof of the pudding is in the eating! I'm from Missouri i.e. the show me state.
I would think that if someone would teach Empty Force for $10,000, at best, the student should be able to duplicate that 'skill"

Stuff like this give taicheese a bad name when you start adding this bullshit....jus' sayin ??? ;D
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Re: Empty Force

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:14 pm

yeniseri wrote:Stuff like this give taicheese a bad name when you start adding this bullshit....jus' sayin ??? ;D

Agree with you 100% there.

When long fist GM Han Chin-Tang used samurai sword to cut on his own face and no blood came out, my SC teacher told him that he must have thick face skin. In Chinese, thick face skin also means shameless.

One should not try to prove more than what he can do.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:57 pm

Appledog wrote:
windwalker wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I'd say that appears to be some fakery or delusion going on, just like with all the other no touch nonsense


Do you even know who the teacher is, or what he just explained?

wow,,,ok carry on young jedi...


A quick recap of what I posted; I quoted the Wu six character formula, and I asked you to point out where empty force was in that formula. Because I am interested in discussing what Tai Chi actually teaches. So I pointed out that nowhere in the translation does he explain things in terms of empty force. All of this leading to a rather obvious conclusion that it is not a part of Tai Chi.

So if Tai Chi actually teaches this, I would be honestly interested in where it comes out, because it doesn't seem to fit in anywhere with the standard orthodox training progression.



Interesting I will not comment on your motive as to honest or not. I can say that what he has explained explains the process by which people do it very well.

Whether or not you understand, accept it, not an issue for me.

But since you feel like discussing it. you might start by addressing the field he is talking about.

What is it , how does it function, what does he mean by he can interchange his body with the field, how does this cause the reaction shown in the clip..
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Re: Empty Force

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:02 pm

Peacedog wrote:Windwalker,

What I'm saying is that it isn't exclusively a tai chi thing. It seems to be a methodology unto itself that shows up in tai chi and other systems.



Kind of depends on the lineage and focus of the teacher.
To really talk about it you might first explain what is meant by the word "Jin" how is this different from normal kinetic Force.

"
Master Wei Shuren
Prior to meeting Master Wang Yongquan, Master Wei was a contented master of Chen style Tai Chi Chuan. A friend told him of an old master with superlative skill that he must meet. Master Wei famously said that there was nothing more for him to learn in Tai Chi Chuan since he had attained a high level of skill."

"The friend persisted. Some two years later a reluctant Master Wei stood before Master Wang who was sitting down in a rattan chair. Master Wei was skeptical and it must have shown on his face. Master Wang waved Master Wei over. Leaning back in his chair Master Wang asked Wei to extend his middle fingers. Master Wang grasped both of Wei's middle fingers by the tips, showed Wei that it would not be easy if not impossible to fajing him in this manner.

In the next instance Master Wei was thrown back, an expression of surprise on his face. He had not expected this and in his heart knew that for all his Chen style attainment he just did not have anything close to what Master Wang just demonstrated "
https://spark.adobe.com/page/WbRbg/

Interesting accounting addresses many of the questions posed here.

A Chen stylist,. Imagine that
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