Empty Force

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Empty Force

Postby Trick on Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:08 am

windwalker wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:No clue who he is and don't speak Chinese, just saying that it looks like fakery or delusion. I would love nothing more than to meet someone who could change my mind regards this no touch nonsense but so far I've been out of luck


completely understand...

The teacher is head of the northern Wu style

Now I can’t see the vid, who is this head of northern Wu-style? I practiced a little with Li Bingci’s group in Beijing never did I see any empty force practice or demonstrated there
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Re: Empty Force

Postby Trick on Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:38 am

Would like to add since Wang Xiangzhai was mentioned in the thread, Li Bingci told me that back when he studied with Yang Yuting their group where practicing just next to Wang Xiangzhai’s group and Yang let some of his students learn from Wang.....I’m sure there where no empty force going on there
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Re: Empty Force

Postby Appledog on Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:46 am

windwalker wrote:
Appledog wrote:So if Tai Chi actually teaches this, I would be honestly interested in where it comes out, because it doesn't seem to fit in anywhere with the standard orthodox training progression.


Whether or not you understand, accept it, not an issue for me.

But since you feel like discussing it. you might start by addressing the field he is talking about.


I don't speak Chinese so I don't really know what he is saying. It could mean elixir field. Based on what he said, that it arises out of doing the form, it seems he's talking about dantian/qi. Just basic elixir field stuff. Can you please tell me at what level we train empty force in the six character Wu style progression? Or if it is a type of seventh technique?

I am concerned because the discussion is resisting attempts to elucidate on exactly how and when empty force is trained in Tai Chi. A couple of times now this issue has been placed aside. There are no motives from me other than trying to clarify what is and is not tai chi. I think one unspoken issue here is how I have the right to do that and how you don't. It is true I don't have the right to speak for everyone. But because I can say who my teacher's teacher was, and that he learned from Mr. X or Mr, Y or whomever, or whomever the people I hung out with and studied with, or that I judged several international Tai Chi tournaments, I can trace back what I say and connect it to the larger body of tai chi knowledge. The larger community. You don't seem to be able to do this from a Tai Chi perspective so it is difficult to know where you are really coming from. For example, if you want to talk about Wu style, no one I have ever studied Wu style with talked about empty force. Instead, things were discussed in-line with (for example) the Wu style six character formula. So now I find myself talking to you and you seem to be saying empty force is part of Tai Chi. I am asking why you think what you do has anything to do with Tai Chi. I am not being derogatory, I am just asking, because based on decades of experience in every major style I have never heard of or seen any kind of Empty Force training, and in fact I have heard quite a number of comments against it.

Let's say for a moment that everything you have said is correct -- You said what you do is not tai chi, you disagree with the fundamental training methods of tai chi such as push hands, you can't tell us who your teacher's teacher was, and you choose to use terms that no one in the tai chi community uses. Further to all this from your story of M. Wei it seems as if you hold what you do train to be in higher regard than tai chi -- even upper level Chen style, if that matters. None of this is derogatory, I am just trying to explain to you why I am in such a state of wonder at why you are think what you do has anything to do with Tai Chi.

So in conclusion, putting aside the fact I don't believe in empty force, I think we can both agree by now it isn't a part of normal Tai Chi training. Let's also say for point of argument I am wrong about empty force and that it is a thing. Apparently based on everything you have said I will never encounter it in my Tai Chi training.

In that case I owe it to my masters and their faith in me to repeat M. Wei's story and fully master Tai Chi before I go off and learn something else.
Last edited by Appledog on Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:52 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby LaoDan on Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:06 am

windwalker wrote: With those I trained with. We used skin, hair, air. The touch becoming progressively lighter and lighter as ones understanding and ability developed.

WW,

I do not practice kongjin (empty force), but have had personal experiences that lead me to be open to the possibility of something happening that I do not understand. For example, I typically walk faster than other pedestrians, and when I am approaching one from behind with the thought of passing them, they not infrequently move in the direction that I am thinking of (and if I want them to move the other way, I can do so by thinking of the other direction). This even happens with people who are unaware of me consciously (looking down at their smart phones, showing a startle response when I actually pass them and they become consciously aware of me...).

I have had someone question my assertion of the physics principle commonly referred to as “equal and opposite force.” Since I stated that it applies to any contact, they asked if it still applied to hair, and then to air. Since you mentioned the progression of skin to hair to air as a progression that you work with, and since you mention how you like to explain things using physics principles, could you please explain how you understand this situation?

To my understanding, there is equal and opposite force produced in all of these situations. In the case of touching hairs, there is very little force, but it is still equal and opposite. In the case of air, there is no force and it is zero for both participants; so what explains someone being involuntarily moved when having no force applied to them? This seems to defy physics, and appears to point to psychological factors instead of physical ones.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:09 am

another book :o

Appledog wrote:

I don't speak Chinese so I don't really know what he is saying. Interesting I thought you did or could.It could mean elixir field. Based on what he said, that it arises out of doing the form, it seems he's talking about dantian/qi. Just basic elixir field stuff. Can you please tell me at what level we train empty force in the six character Wu style progression? Or if it is a type of seventh technique? what he says is pretty clear, he is the current grand master of n-wu,,,explaining and demoing something and your asking about something in a book?

I am concerned because the discussion is resisting attempts to elucidate on exactly how and when empty force is trained in Tai Chi. The training starts from day one, with the admonition not to use force...and fan song... A couple of times now this issue has been placed aside. There are no motives from me other than trying to clarify what is and is not tai chi. I think one unspoken issue here is how I have the right to do that and how you don't.
Who ever gave you that right thank him or her for it, I dont ask nor need anyone to tell me what I do or do not do...
It is true I don't have the right to speak for everyone. But because I can say who my teacher's teacher was, and that he learned from Mr. X or Mr, Y or whomever, or whomever the people I hung out with and studied with, or that I judged several international Tai Chi tournaments,

kinda the point, others who know what taiji is are the ones that can make this distinction. So far all that I've met feel what I do is what they feel taiji should be like but for the most part is not. As to the kong jin, its part of a progression depending on linage and focus and skill level of the teachers. Not ever one is able to develop the full skill of it nor do all teachers teach this aspect some feel its kind of a distraction leading in the wrong direction

I can trace back what I say and connect it to the larger body of tai chi knowledge. The larger community. You don't seem to be able to do this from a Tai Chi perspective so it is difficult to know where you are really coming from. For example, if you want to talk about Wu style, no one I have ever studied Wu style with talked about empty force. Instead, things were discussed in-line with (for example) the Wu style six character formula. So now I find myself talking to you and you seem to be saying empty force is part of Tai Chi. I am asking why you think what you do has anything to do with Tai Chi. I am not being derogatory, I am just asking, because based on decades of experience in every major style I have never heard of or seen any kind of Empty Force training, and in fact I have heard quite a number of comments against it. I would refer you to the clip of Gao Zhuangfei (高壮飞) one of 王培生
Wang Peisheng noted students
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27147

Let's say for a moment that everything you have said is correct -- You said what you do is not tai chi, you disagree with the fundamental training methods of tai chi such as push hands, you can't tell us who your teacher's teacher was, and you choose to use terms that no one in the tai chi community uses. Further to all this from your story of M. Wei it seems as if you hold what you do train to be in higher regard than tai chi -- even upper level Chen style, if that matters. None of this is derogatory, I am just trying to explain to you why I am in such a state of wonder at why you are think what you do has anything to do with Tai Chi. I dont think, I know..its a little different. Its not a matter for me of being correct or not,,,, I dont call what I do taiji anymore feeling its to restrictive and in confusion... Saying this all that have met me say what I do is taiji...the name dosn't have any interest for me..

So in conclusion, putting aside the fact I don't believe in empty force, I think we can both agree by now it isn't a part of normal Tai Chi training. Let's also say for point of argument I am wrong about empty force and that it is a thing. Apparently based on everything you have said I will never encounter it in my Tai Chi training.Again I would refer you to the clips, and suggest you change or understand what you dont understand...the kong jin, is part of a lager process which by practice is something that is realized over time....just depends on the level of teacher and focus

In that case I owe it to my masters and their faith in me to repeat M. Wei's story and fully master Tai Chi before I go off and learn something else.


why not just do some reading



https://spark.adobe.com/page/WbRbg/

It might help answer some of your own questions....

no more books,,,you write a lot... :-\
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:30 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:47 am

pointless :-\
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:23 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby Trick on Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:54 am

LaoDan wrote:
windwalker wrote: With those I trained with. We used skin, hair, air. The touch becoming progressively lighter and lighter as ones understanding and ability developed.

WW,

I do not practice kongjin (empty force), but have had personal experiences that lead me to be open to the possibility of something happening that I do not understand. For example, I typically walk faster than other pedestrians, and when I am approaching one from behind with the thought of passing them, they not infrequently move in the direction that I am thinking of (and if I want them to move the other way, I can do so by thinking of the other direction). This even happens with people who are unaware of me consciously (looking down at their smart phones, showing a startle response when I actually pass them and they become consciously aware of me...).

I too have an open mind toward these sort of things but the kind of crazy hopping exhibitions to bee seen on the tubes I’m in disbelief, and I don’t see the point of such exhibitions since these “ masters” can’t reproduce it in “real” situations.....Now, about pedestrian incidents as you describe above I have the very same experience on a daily basis, but you have more “skill” than me since you can lure the fellow pedestrians in to other directions 8-) I myself when seeing the guy in front of me begin to cross in to “my” walk path I take a new path often to see the fron guy cross in on my newly chosen path,kind of irritating and it usually come to that I’ve to do some evasive move...I sometimes ponder about this thinking if it has something to do with gravity.....or people just want to annoy me ;D ....or just coincidences 8-)
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Re: Empty Force

Postby Trick on Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:00 am

And years back street lights happened to go out every now and then when I passed by. But haven’t happened here in China, maybe I’ve lost that power or the lights are of better quality here :)
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Re: Empty Force

Postby LaoDan on Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:31 am

Trick wrote:
LaoDan wrote:
windwalker wrote: With those I trained with. We used skin, hair, air. The touch becoming progressively lighter and lighter as ones understanding and ability developed.

WW,

I do not practice kongjin (empty force), but have had personal experiences that lead me to be open to the possibility of something happening that I do not understand. For example, I typically walk faster than other pedestrians, and when I am approaching one from behind with the thought of passing them, they not infrequently move in the direction that I am thinking of (and if I want them to move the other way, I can do so by thinking of the other direction). This even happens with people who are unaware of me consciously (looking down at their smart phones, showing a startle response when I actually pass them and they become consciously aware of me...).

I too have an open mind toward these sort of things but the kind of crazy hopping exhibitions to bee seen on the tubes I’m in disbelief, and I don’t see the point of such exhibitions since these “ masters” can’t reproduce it in “real” situations.....Now, about pedestrian incidents as you describe above I have the very same experience on a daily basis, but you have more “skill” than me since you can lure the fellow pedestrians in to other directions 8-) I myself when seeing the guy in front of me begin to cross in to “my” walk path I take a new path often to see the fron guy cross in on my newly chosen path,kind of irritating and it usually come to that I’ve to do some evasive move...I sometimes ponder about this thinking if it has something to do with gravity.....or people just want to annoy me ;D ....or just coincidences 8-)

Yea, I think that many others may have experienced - currently unexplained - things like this. I would love to hear a reasonable scientific explanation of things like this.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby LaoDan on Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:35 am

windwalker wrote:consider what is being acted on, and how.

qi to qi, yi to yi shen to shen the agents, the medium is though the body...

It starts from the skin,,,first level ie touch,,,getting the correct touch that has yin/yang ...takes a while...
[snip]
They say air but its to mean no physical contact its not the air but the field that is being moved.
[snip]
Teacher Gao, outlined how the field interacts with the body, and body with it...and how this interacts with other bodies it comes into contact with.
[snip]
the field he refers to is the qi chong or qi field that is thought to surround the body, depending on ones development and focus it can extend a few inches to a few feet..ect...just depends on ones inner development and focus...everyone has it, most are not aware of it nor really need to be....The more developed it is the thicker the filed becomes...for most its scattered and not connected in any meaningful way...its something that is developed from training depending on the focus of the training...ie dont use force, 4ox moves a 1000 lb , fan song ect.... :P

Well, since a qi field has not been well defined (some mention heat, some electromagnetism, some photons...), this still seems, at least currently, to rely on “is thought to” and again points more to psychological factors rather than physical ones. If one cannot even satisfactorily define this field (i.e., by using physics), then explaining how the field interacts with the body can only be speculative. The field’s thickening, extending, etc. also seems speculative (how is this measured and understood?), and thus also seems to be more mental than physical.

One can talk about waves (e.g. light waves) passing through the air, and can even talk about them affecting the objects that they contact (e.g. plant photosynthesis, intense heat making animals seek shade...), but it does not really explain the physical claims for kongjin, at least not by using current understandings of physics. There does not appear to be anything comparable to ocean waves which can physically push and pull a human body; there does not even seem to be something comparable to wind, which can push or pull a human body if the wind is strong enough. The qi field would need to be better explained for any of this to make sense to me.

Your explanation does not seem to really explain anything that can currently be understood by physical principles (despite your attempts to use terms from physics, and to provide something that one can rationalize with, i.e., “sounds plausible”), and still seems to rely on psychological (mental) responses.

What allows the field to be interacted with? Is this just a mental assumption?

What allows it to expand or thicken? This also seems to be just a desire rather than something physical that could be measured scientifically.

If one just talks about something imaginary, then any explanations would just be mental exercises that are not based in physical reality.

It still seems to me like the factors that you are exploring in your training are just psychological.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:01 am

LaoDan wrote:[
It still seems to me like the factors that you are exploring in your training are just psychological.


your funny.....

it seems to me that your asking a question on something you dont understand
asking why you dont understand it...expecting to understand it....
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Re: Empty Force

Postby LaoDan on Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:14 am

windwalker wrote:
LaoDan wrote:[
It still seems to me like the factors that you are exploring in your training are just psychological.


your funny.....

it seems to me that your asking a question on something you dont understand
asking why you dont understand it...expecting to understand it....

Yea, that is what scientists do – ask questions about what they do not understand – form hypotheses that make sense based on current knowledge – design ways to validly test those hypotheses, revise, test the revision, etc. Do you think that the scientific method is funny?

I was hoping that asking someone, who makes claims of understanding this phenomenon, might help me to also understand it. But I would also welcome anyone’s thoughts on phenomena, which seem potentially related, like I have experienced while walking up behind people with the intention of passing them, and seeing them unconsciously respond and physically changing their walking direction.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:22 am

LaoDan wrote:
windwalker wrote:
LaoDan wrote:[
It still seems to me like the factors that you are exploring in your training are just psychological.


your funny.....

it seems to me that your asking a question on something you dont understand
asking why you dont understand it...expecting to understand it....

Yea, that is what scientists do – ask questions about what they do not understand – form hypotheses that make sense based on current knowledge – design ways to validly test those hypotheses, revise, test the revision, etc. Do you think that the scientific method is funny?

no I think you thinking your using this method is funny...I work with people who are engineers and scientist, they seem
to get it and examine it very rigorously in accordance with their fields of study.


I was hoping that asking someone, who makes claims of understanding this phenomenon, might help me to also understand it.
you mean agee with, not understand...to understand it you would know, knowing comes from experience which you do not have...and yet are unable to even comprehend the basic assumptions that its based on

But I would also welcome anyone’s thoughts on phenomena, which seem potentially related, like I have experienced while walking up behind people with the intention of passing them, and seeing them unconsciously respond and physically changing their walking direction.


yep more words, as long as its written....always works..

best of luck...
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Empty Force

Postby RobP3 on Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:23 am

LaoDan wrote:Yea, that is what scientists do – ask questions about what they do not understand – form hypotheses that make sense based on current knowledge – design ways to validly test those hypotheses, revise, test the revision, etc. Do you think that the scientific method is funny?

I was hoping that asking someone, who makes claims of understanding this phenomenon, might help me to also understand it. But I would also welcome anyone’s thoughts on phenomena, which seem potentially related, like I have experienced while walking up behind people with the intention of passing them, and seeing them unconsciously respond and physically changing their walking direction.


This is something we touch on a fair bit in our training. From our perspective it is just the natural sharpening of the senses that occurs when you experience deeper levels of physical and emotional relaxation or when people are able to "let themselves go." It's a normal, everyday occurrence for everything in the animal kingdom IMHO
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Re: Empty Force

Postby Appledog on Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:58 am

windwalker wrote:https://spark.adobe.com/page/WbRbg/

It might help answer some of your own questions....


I don't have any questions. The reason I asked you about the wu style six character formula is because it should be obvious to you that it's an unanswerable question and therefore empty force doesn't exist in Tai Chi.

Further, the article you linked to me corroborates everything I said. ex. the idea of a 'force model' which was created outside of a direct transmission and which "does not exist outside of the mind". This does not support your ideas as you have presented them here.

Not really sure what else to make of what you are saying, but if you get around to answering my question about where and how empty force is trained, precisely, we could probably go from there. It's just that you don't seem particularly enthusiastic about Tai Chi per-se in the first place, so I find it difficult to give you any credibility under that umbrella. I am sure you are an expert in whatever it is you do, it's just that it isn't Tai Chi. You seem to freely admit this yourself so I don't understand your problem with what I said, or the difficulty in just answering the question :p
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