Empty Force Challenge

[windwalker]

If LKJ /fa jin were a thing, it would have a forty million dollar budget from US Special Forces--for starters.

fixed it...ya maybe your right.
How do you know its not...

[middleway]

Like I said whether touched or not the process by which it works is the same.

WW,

You KEEP saying that, but dont seem to want to describe the process by which it works. This is why you keep hitting brick walls in these conversations. There are a couple of very easy things to answer that would frame the conversation better.

1) What is the process by which empty force works?
2) What is the purpose of a) demonstrating Empty force b) training empty force?

If you were to make a detailed response to these two seemingly simply questions, everyone would be in the know on the theory, and discussions would be much more fruitful.

just a thought.

thanks.

[Trick]

If LKJ were a thing, it would have a forty million dollar budget from US Special Forces--for starters.

Yes, i too thought about this, and maybe as WW hint at maybe they do? The Russians atleast back in the Soviet days did research in ”mysterious” phenomenon such as remote viewing and similar

[windwalker]

Like I said whether touched or not the process by which it works is the same.

WW,

You KEEP saying that, but dont seem to want to describe the process by which it works. This is why you keep hitting brick walls in these conversations. There are a couple of very easy things to answer that would frame the conversation better.

1) What is the process by which empty force works?
2) What is the purpose of a) demonstrating Empty force b) training empty force?

If you were to make a detailed response to these two seemingly simply questions, everyone would be in the know on the theory, and discussions would be much more fruitful.

just a thought.

thanks.

Thanks for your thought I'll get back to it a little bit later but for now.

You do know I have asked other people who are better writers to post here to help explain some things from a first-hand experience.

They eventually left and gave up. On the way out he asked me why do I continue to post people here don't really want answers.

[Trick]

Like I said whether touched or not the process by which it works is the same.

WW,

You KEEP saying that, but dont seem to want to describe the process by which it works. This is why you keep hitting brick walls in these conversations. There are a couple of very easy things to answer that would frame the conversation better.

1) What is the process by which empty force works?
2) What is the purpose of a) demonstrating Empty force b) training empty force?

If you were to make a detailed response to these two seemingly simply questions, everyone would be in the know on the theory, and discussions would be much more fruitful.

just a thought.

thanks.

The only process so far given as I recall where given is -“skin,hair,air”.......The purpose or application of the force outside of just demo it on students I have asked for a couple of times, but only get that mysterious answer “the process is the same whether touched or not”

[windwalker]

Like I said whether touched or not the process by which it works is the same.

WW,

You KEEP saying that, but dont seem to want to describe the process by which it works. This is why you keep hitting brick walls in these conversations. There are a couple of very easy things to answer that would frame the conversation better.

1) What is the process by which empty force works?
2) What is the purpose of a) demonstrating Empty force b) training empty force?

If you were to make a detailed response to these two seemingly simply questions, everyone would be in the know on the theory, and discussions would be much more fruitful.

just a thought.

thanks.

Casey used to post here


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5MZoQPz99M

I had asked him to post here to help others understand what was shown in the clip..
He was kind enough to share some thoughts.

He left after feeling that it would be better to explain it in person.

Most asking seem only to want to confirm what they already know.
The point of explaining it would be?

Casey at a match


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW8Yeil8XBg

another match


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYtQi_peHpk

Whether touched or not, the process that it works by is the same.


Others that I know have also stopped posting or left...
same problems .

Questions are asked not to understand but only to confirm.

With reference to the

skin
hair
air

They refer to the touch, amount of force used and depth of the interaction...meaning one is not to interact
with another's frame, ie bone.

I would think for the many here who say they practice taiji, the meaning would be clear
if they know and understand how to stick to and follow someone...

If you want to move with awareness and yet you do not understand sticking, adhering, connecting, and following,
it will be beyond your reach, for it is a very subtle skill.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/

What is called kong jin is based off of awareness and depends on having the prerequisite skill sets,
that should be common to all who practice taiji. Kong jin, like peng jin, and other descriptions of "jin"
are part of much larger process...

Even peng jin, something that most say they have and understand, this understanding can be very different...
The problem is for those who understand it one way, it will eventually lead them to the understanding the why and how of kong jin
maybe not the skill itself but they will know..

For others understanding peng jin, in another way this understanding will not be possible, as the understanding it self has no possibility of
leading one to find it.

Nither way is wrong or right, they do illustrate different ideas, different approaches with different outcomes.

[wiesiek]

If LKJ were a thing, it would have a forty million dollar budget from US Special Forces--for starters.

Yes, i too thought about this, and maybe as WW hint at maybe they do? The Russians atleast back in the Soviet days did research in ”mysterious” phenomenon such as remote viewing and similar

uncovering US SF approach: "Men who staring on the goats " the move

[middleway]

hi WW,

You do know I have asked other people who are better writers to post here to help explain some things from a first-hand experience.

They eventually left and gave up. On the way out he asked me why do I continue to post people here don't really want answers.

I, and a few others, have said directly that we REALLY do want answers. However 'You have to feel it' or 'lets assume it is real' or links to Physics sites and wave forms are not answers.

I am not interested in other peoples inability to explain the process. They are not here, you are and you continue to post on the subject so I think its reasonable to ask you direct questions on a subject you are extremely familiar with. Of course you could just say 'I dont want to answer' and that would be fine. Then naturally you cannot expect those on this board to take the subject seriously until more concrete information is provided.

For clarity I am not looking at this with a made up mind, i pride myself in my ability to have my mind changed on something. I am approaching this with a skeptical mind however, that simply means that i am reviewing what you share based on my personal experience, both with very good internal arts people and people who claim to have LKJ.

In fact i have had people come to train with me that have leaped all over the place at the slightest of touches, one stating that i sent 'electicity' into him! Such delusions are met by me with 'Dont be silly and dont give up so easy ...' . So it is very possible that certain people feel and see what they want to feel and see, and that has nothing to do with what is REALLY happening.

There is a saying in effective coaching / teaching that a good teacher should be able to make even the most complex processes easy for a 6 year old to understand. With that in mind and with the questions posted, i fail to see why a single post would be impossible to achieve that addresses the two questions imediately and directly.

What i see at the moment is a lot of misdirection in your posts. You make vague and non specific statements then expect all people to connect with them in some way, when they ask for detail you simply say they dont want to know or offer more vague statements.

It is unfortunate because i feel like you are genuinely convinced by the work you promote, but conversation seems impossible.

regards
Chris.

[windwalker]

hi WW,

You do know I have asked other people who are better writers to post here to help explain some things from a first-hand experience.

They eventually left and gave up. On the way out he asked me why do I continue to post people here don't really want answers.

I, and a few others, have said directly that we REALLY do want answers. However 'You have to feel it' or 'lets assume it is real' or links to Physics sites and wave forms are not answers.

I am not interested in other peoples inability to explain the process. They are not here, you are and you continue to post on the subject so I think its reasonable to ask you direct questions on a subject you are extremely familiar with. Of course you could just say 'I dont want to answer' and that would be fine. Then naturally you cannot expect those on this board to take the subject seriously until more concrete information is provided.How does that work,,you dont want or accept an answer I give using other aspects to help explain it. You want an answer that agrees with what you know, asking about something you dont know about....ya I can see where this is going

For clarity I am not looking at this with a made up mind, i pride myself in my ability to have my mind changed on something. I am approaching this with a skeptical mind however, that simply means that i am reviewing what you share based on my personal experience, both with very good internal arts people and people who claim to have LKJ.none that you have not mentioned that I know...all the people I know of and those I post clips of we all tend to say and understand the same things,,,because its the same process at work...With Casey for example we had no problems talking about this, comparing notes so to speak.

In fact i have had people come to train with me that have leaped all over the place at the slightest of touches, one stating that i sent 'electicity' into him! Such delusions are met by me with 'Dont be silly and dont give up so easy ...' . So it is very possible that certain people feel and see what they want to feel and see, and that has nothing to do with what is REALLY happening. So what is really happening according to you. You asking them to ingnore what they feel not understanding what it is but you know what it is right? ..good way to get them to ignore themselves the better question would be why you dont feel it. ...

There is a saying in effective coaching / teaching that a good teacher should be able to make even the most complex processes easy for a 6 year old to understand. With that in mind and with the questions posted, i fail to see why a single post would be impossible to achieve that addresses the two questions imediately and directly. mmmm, not many 6 yr olds in collage....no whats called kong jin among other skill sets are more along the lines of collage work...For most of the people I connect with most have many, many yrs in taiji. When I was actively teaching taiji I would help them to understand some key points of their practice that they may not have noted or had enough hands on with in their own practice.

What i see at the moment is a lot of misdirection in your posts. You make vague and non specific statements then expect all people to connect with them in some way, when they ask for detail you simply say they dont want to know or offer more vague statements.

Misdirection....wow,,ok

If one does not have the prerequisites why would I expect them to understand although I mistakenly do .
expecting others to get it..more so because its already been explained in Chinese and english...and yet here we are with you asking for yet another explanation....doesn't look like its going to work out.

Can you explain what sticking means in taiji, what is sticking to what, how is it done....if you can explain sticking it should be easy to understand some aspects of kong jin...depending on what your understanding and idea of sticking is...those who work with Aiki use some of the same principles and concepts.

It is unfortunate because i feel like you are genuinely convinced by the work you promote.

Not promoting anything....I must admit I do try to help explain what some of the old masters are doing that some mock...
a bad habit,,, carry on ......

regards
Chris.

not much more to say on this,
Even in China with the people there it was quite hard for them to understand what they were feeling and reacting to...and they were there...

thanks for a well reasoned post.
cheers

david

[Trick]

hi WW,

You do know I have asked other people who are better writers to post here to help explain some things from a first-hand experience.

They eventually left and gave up. On the way out he asked me why do I continue to post people here don't really want answers.

I, and a few others, have said directly that we REALLY do want answers. However 'You have to feel it' or 'lets assume it is real' or links to Physics sites and wave forms are not answers.

I am not interested in other peoples inability to explain the process. They are not here, you are and you continue to post on the subject so I think its reasonable to ask you direct questions on a subject you are extremely familiar with. Of course you could just say 'I dont want to answer' and that would be fine. Then naturally you cannot expect those on this board to take the subject seriously until more concrete information is provided.How does that work,,you dont want or accept an answer I give using other aspects to help explain it. You want an answer that agrees with what you know, asking about something you dont know about....ya I can see where this is going

For clarity I am not looking at this with a made up mind, i pride myself in my ability to have my mind changed on something. I am approaching this with a skeptical mind however, that simply means that i am reviewing what you share based on my personal experience, both with very good internal arts people and people who claim to have LKJ.none that you have not mentioned that I know...all the people I know of and those I post clips of we all tend to say and understand the same things,,,because its the same process at work...With Casey for example we had no problems talking about this, comparing notes so to speak.

In fact i have had people come to train with me that have leaped all over the place at the slightest of touches, one stating that i sent 'electicity' into him! Such delusions are met by me with 'Dont be silly and dont give up so easy ...' . So it is very possible that certain people feel and see what they want to feel and see, and that has nothing to do with what is REALLY happening. So what is really happening according to you. You asking them to ingnore what they feel not understanding what it is but you know what it is right? ..good way to get them to ignore themselves the better question would be why you dont feel it. ...

There is a saying in effective coaching / teaching that a good teacher should be able to make even the most complex processes easy for a 6 year old to understand. With that in mind and with the questions posted, i fail to see why a single post would be impossible to achieve that addresses the two questions imediately and directly. mmmm, not many 6 yr olds in collage....no whats called kong jin among other skill sets are more along the lines of collage work...For most of the people I connect with most have many, many yrs in taiji. When I was actively teaching taiji I would help them to understand some key points of their practice that they may not have noted or had enough hands on with in their own practice.

What i see at the moment is a lot of misdirection in your posts. You make vague and non specific statements then expect all people to connect with them in some way, when they ask for detail you simply say they dont want to know or offer more vague statements.

Misdirection....wow,,ok

If one does not have the prerequisites why would I expect them to understand although I mistakenly do .
expecting others to get it..more so because its already been explained in Chinese and english...and yet here we are with you asking for yet another explanation....doesn't look like its going to work out.

Can you explain what sticking means in taiji, what is sticking to what, how is it done....if you can explain sticking it should be easy to understand some aspects of kong jin...depending on what your understanding and idea of sticking is...those who work with Aiki use some of the same principles and concepts.

It is unfortunate because i feel like you are genuinely convinced by the work you promote.

Not promoting anything....I must admit I do try to help explain what some of the old masters are doing that some mock...
a bad habit,,, carry on ......

regards
Chris.

not much more to say on this,
Even in China with the people there it was quite hard for them to understand what they were feeling and reacting to...and they were there...

thanks for a well reasoned post.
cheers

david

Misdirections, well he could be right....Here you first write that if one just understand “sticking” one is on the way to understand EF, then in the very next breath you say that of course it depend on ones understanding of sticking implying that there can be several ways to understand sticking? How convenient. Now you can say that a Taiji practitioner that know sticking from long time push hands practice but says he never encountered any EF during his whole career have not the right understanding, and you could claim the same to an boxer who understand sticking from clinching, or a wrestler who understand it from well wrestling. And yes one can stick from a distance too boxers do it all the time, but even from that perspective they are probably wrong too ?..........Yes you are right it’s probably impossible to proof/convince/explain EF by writing or posting diagrams of spheres and orbs online, but it’s ok to try why not ? But claiming to be in the possession of the real deal then one is putting oneself on quite an high horse, remember you where the first to respond to the OP in the other EF thread and claiming he is wrong in his understanding implying his understanding is nowhere near the real empty force.

[johnwang]

You do know I have asked other people who are better writers to post here to help explain some things from a first-hand experience.

Windwalker, my question is so simple that doesn't need a better writer.

Will EF work on non-human objects such as a throwing dummy?

[windwalker]

You do know I have asked other people who are better writers to post here to help explain some things from a first-hand experience.

Windwalker, my question is so simple that doesn't need a better writer.

Will EF work on non-human objects such as a throwing dummy?

no

[middleway]

Windwalker.

I tried. You simply reinforced the points in my post.

Unfortunate but i wish you all the best.

Chris

[marvin8]

Like I said whether touched or not the process by which it works is the same.

WW,

You KEEP saying that, but dont seem to want to describe the process by which it works. This is why you keep hitting brick walls in these conversations. There are a couple of very easy things to answer that would frame the conversation better.

1) What is the process by which empty force works?
2) What is the purpose of a) demonstrating Empty force b) training empty force?

If you were to make a detailed response to these two seemingly simply questions, everyone would be in the know on the theory, and discussions would be much more fruitful.

just a thought.

thanks.

Casey at a match


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW8Yeil8XBg

another match


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYtQi_peHpk

Whether touched or not, the process that it works by is the same.


Others that I know have also stopped posting or left...
same problems .

Questions are asked not to understand but only to confirm.

With reference to the

skin
hair
air

They refer to the touch, amount of force used and depth of the interaction...meaning one is not to interact
with another's frame, ie bone.

I would think for the many here who say they practice taiji, the meaning would be clear
if they know and understand how to stick to and follow someone...

If you want to move with awareness and yet you do not understand sticking, adhering, connecting, and following,
it will be beyond your reach, for it is a very subtle skill.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/

What is called kong jin is based off of awareness and depends on having the prerequisite skill sets,
that should be common to all who practice taiji. Kong jin, like peng jin, and other descriptions of "jin"
are part of much larger process...

Even peng jin, something that most say they have and understand, this understanding can be very different...
The problem is for those who understand it one way, it will eventually lead them to the understanding the why and how of kong jin
maybe not the skill itself but they will know..

For others understanding peng jin, in another way this understanding will not be possible, as the understanding it self has no possibility of
leading one to find it.

Nither way is wrong or right, they do illustrate different ideas, different approaches with different outcomes.

Can you timestamp where in the videos Casey is using "kong jin" in his matches?

[windwalker]

Can you timestamp where in the videos Casey is using "kong jin" in his matches?

the better question would have been why does somebody who is obviously a competitor has some skills trains and feels the way he does about his training, that here very few seem to understand or get.

Your question is based on a misunderstanding of what it is , how it's applied, and how it's used.