Empty Force Challenge

[windwalker]

I don't understand why you don't just come out and put the theory into your own words based on your own understanding and experience. Forget this nonsense of third party translations.

I don't understand why you wouldn't want to know what they are explaining to understand what you were looking at.

A native speakers translation would be a good bases for talking about what is shown in the clips being questioned

What's the issue?

[windwalker]

I don't understand why you don't just come out and put the theory into your own words based on your own understanding and experience. Forget this nonsense of third party translations.

Kinda strange considering you among others site verbiage that has been translated as a basis of your own understanding. Never explaining what you understand in your own words.

As in " Wu wei" you used n another thread not really understanding what it means. Or I should say apparently having a very superficial understanding of it.

How does that work?

[origami_itto]

I guess you intend for it to work by avoiding the question and ad hominem.

Are you simply constitutionally incapable of making a direct statement? Is it like some kind of pathology?

You claim there is a simple model most of us already agree with in part that can adequately explain the ability to affect another person without direct physical contact. I'm just asking for you to explain that model in your own words, not sending me on a scavenger hunt to make sense of the word salad translation of some third party.

I just don't understand what sort of game your trying to play here.

[windwalker]

I guess you intend for it to work by avoiding the question and ad hominem.

Are you simply constitutionally incapable of making a direct statement? Is it like some kind of pathology?

You claim there is a simple model most of us already agree with in part that can adequately explain the ability to affect another person without direct physical contact. I'm just asking for you to explain that model in your own words, not sending me on a scavenger hunt to make sense of the word salad translation of some third party.

I just don't understand what sort of game your trying to play here.

It's your game

Step one look at a video
Step to understand what is said in the video
Step 3 see if what is said follows what is done or agrees with one's understanding.

Simple. You can continue arguing or you can try to get with the program.

[origami_itto]

Step One: I've watched the video
Step Two: I don't speak chinese
Step Three: Since I don't understand what's said, I can't very well say whether or not I agree or disagree with anything, on the surface it looks like absolute horse number 2.

So I'm asking you, as one who is advocating an idea, to fill in the number 2, so we can get to number 3. It would be far less effort than the circular number 2 you keep repeating about it.

[windwalker]

Step One: I've watched the video
Step Two: I don't speak chinese
Step Three: Since I don't understand what's said, I can't very well say whether or not I agree or disagree with anything, on the surface it looks like absolute horse number 2.

So I'm asking you, as one who is advocating an idea, to fill in the number 2, so we can get to number 3. It would be far less effort than the circular number 2 you keep repeating about it.

Which is why the translation from a native speaker would be very helpful. I am not advocating any idea I'm only sharing my experiences about an idea from a viewpoint of direct experience with it.

The subject is a video not me. If you want to discuss what you see understand what is said first

[Taijikid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OckoWUoCbtA

LOL, looks like a miss cue at 1:12. A "chai" became a "bounce".

[Dmitri]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OckoWUoCbtA

Oh dear god

If JW translateed it, it might make more sense.

Being able to understand what is said to be happening often allows one to understand what is shown happening in a different way.

It can look strange at times


https://youtu.be/j85uuZqIZIM

Both clips show the same thing, only one none Chinese speakers can understand

I completely disagree. There is a tiny overlap in what they are showing, but if I watched both videos without sound I would come to very different conclusions as to what's going on in each.

Over the years, I've touched hands plenty of times with folks from both of these "camps"/"schools of thought"/"training styles", both in "demo" mode and non-cooperatively. In general, probably the most dramatic distinction is that the former (shown in the first clip) becomes stiff and fairly ineffective under real/more pressure and doesn't look anything like the demo anymore, whereas the latter looks and feels pretty much the same, with pressure or without.

[windwalker]

It's all right to come to different conclusions. Mine is they're pretty much the same I have felt both by different teachers.

the point was to understand what was going on in the other clip and to see if it agreed with what was being shown.

other people looking at the other clip without having benefit of having met one of the teachers might have different conclusions than what you have. The difference is they can understand what is being said and make a judgement from that.

[windwalker]

"that the former (shown in the first clip) becomes stiff and fairly ineffective under real/more pressure and doesn't look anything like the demo anymore, whereas the latter looks and feels pretty much the same, with pressure or without."

You might Follow that with in your experience.

[Trick]

Well Here’s something in English https://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XODgyND ... %258A%25B2

[Trick]

And here’s something interesting with master handling “attackers” about two minutes in https://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XMTc4MD ... 244740.0.0

[Trick]

Well Here’s something in English https://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XODgyND ... %258A%25B2

[windwalker]

And here’s something interesting with master handling “attackers” about two minutes in https://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XMTc4MD ... 244740.0.0

Feel free to post any clip of someone doing CMA in a competitive environment that looks like what they trained
doing well. Lots of stories but so far nada,,,you can be a first..

from another thread.

People argue about empty force when, at a time when almost everyone over 10 has a video camera in his pocket, there are no examples of effective imas in competition with other martial arts that everyone can agree on. Most people want to see and talk about full contact, not empty contact. Many people who were interested specifically in that type of work have simply given up trying to talk about it.

[Steve James]

Google Bagua or Xingyi tournament and compare training to practice.