The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:32 pm

In CMA, sometime there is no right or wrong but trade off. If you punch

- before your foot landing, you can take advantage on your momentum.
- during your foot landing, you can take advantage on your weight dropping.
- after your foot landing, you can take advantage on your better rooting.

Whether all 3 methods should be trained, that may be debatable.

Besides the "power generation" concern, your hand coordinate with you foot can have the following advantage. You have 2 arms and 2 legs. Most of the time, your 2 arms will move with 1 leg (you will need at least 1 rooting leg). That will be 3 different moves there. Instead of thinking about 3 separate moves, with coordination, you can think about just 1 move. The complexity of your training can be simplified. If your both hands can coordinate with 1 foot landing, you can reduce the complexity of your move to the minimum.

Will this approach work for all CMA styles?. What's your thought on this?

The following clip, 6 different body moves can be simplified into only 2 moves.

1. Right foot landing coordinate with left downward parry and right upward comb hair.
2. Left foot landing coordinate with left arm wrap and right arm head lock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfR-yJL ... e=youtu.be
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby klonk on Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:20 pm

I tend to think of punch timing this way, the fist should arrive 'no later than' the foot landing on the ground.

If your punch arrives fractionally before the foot lands, essentially you are landing on your fist. None of the power of your forward movement is dissipated in the landing foot.

If foot and fist land together, some people talk about a new force-acceleration being created as your momentum flows past the new balance point created by the foot as it lands simultaneously with the impact. That is perhaps a trifle esoteric, but foot and fist landing together is more stable if you miss with your punch.

What is good about the either-or approach, meaning the punch lands with the foot or fractionally before, 'no later than,' is that my timing does not need to be perfect, and it frequently is not if the opponent insists on moving around.

As to foot arriving first, I tend not to do that, but it isn't a terrible idea. Karate is full of punches done that way, you get grounded and drive your punches from a very solid but momentarily immobile stance. I have in the past likened these punches to firing artillery from a mount fasted firmly to the ground. Doing it that way loses a brief instant of time, but it is very stable.

In each case, you need to avoid being foot-swept as you advance, but that is a problem shared by all three possible timings of the advance.
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby klonk on Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:35 pm

So as a practical matter, my punches tend to arrive before the foot, but only very slightly, with the foot landing viewed as the deadline for completion of the move.

I try to exploit the commonality you refer to, powering either hand off of any step, but some maneuvers seem more practical than others.
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:10 pm

The interested part of this training is to move your hand while your foot is stepping forward and still in the air. For example, with right side forward.

1. left back leg step to the side, right leading hand contact opponent's wrist.
2. Step in right leg, while right foot is still in the air, left back hand contact opponent's elbow joint.
3. When right foot land, right leading hand hit on opponent's neck.

Both 1 and 3, the hand coordinate with foot landing, but 2 is not (foot is still in the air).

The challenge part of 2 is if not only you want to use left hand to push on your opponent's elbow joint, if you also want to grab your opponent's leading leg with your left hand. You will need to do 2 moves while your right foot is still in the air.
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby Steve James on Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:32 pm

I'm no good at all of making sense of these descriptions. The best way to test would simply to use a punch meter and see what gives the highest result.

However, I would probably say that the most power is delivered when the body (i.e., the body's momentum) and the hand/fist make contact with the opponent at the same time.
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby yeniseri on Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:02 pm

Steve James wrote:I'm no good at all of making sense of these descriptions. The best way to test would simply to use a punch meter and see what gives the highest result.

However, I would probably say that the most power is delivered when the body (i.e., the body's momentum) and the hand/fist make contact with the opponent at the same time.


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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby klonk on Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:28 pm

I think that old time xingyi literature said that foot and hand should arrive at the same time. My question as to that is, what if the opponent moves back an inch and causes me to be a fraction of a second late? Doesn't that blow the technique? So the idea to be infinitesimally early, if not on time, 'no later than' the foot, seems to allow a margin for errors of that sort.

But anyway, in whatever way you sort out that question, it looks to me as if xingyi allows actions in between the steps, such as a deflecting arm that moves resistance aside as you move in to whack the fellow. Those who, unlike me, actually know something about xingyi may wish to clarify this point... :D
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:52 pm

klonk wrote:what if the opponent moves back an inch and causes me to be a fraction of a second late?

That the time the hopping step can be effective. The interest thing is, many sports use it but many CMA systems don't have it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T5Kma45c3o
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:25 pm

Steve James wrote:I'm no good at all of making sense of these descriptions. The best way to test would simply to use a punch meter and see what gives the highest result.

Yes. The most powerful punch against a strike meter is probably the straight punch (rear dominant hand).

Steve James wrote:However, I would probably say that the most power is delivered when the body (i.e., the body's momentum) and the hand/fist make contact with the opponent at the same time.

The most momentum and power delivered with the straight punch is by utilizing the kinetic chain, "after your foot landing."

johnwang wrote:
klonk wrote:what if the opponent moves back an inch and causes me to be a fraction of a second late?

That the time the hopping step can be effective. The interest thing is, many sports use it but many CMA systems don't have it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T5Kma45c3o

That is because swinging a tennis racket is not the same mechanics as throwing a punch. However, CMA does include punch "after your foot landing"—which can make use of the kinetic chain. (Combat sports uses different types of foot landing, depending on which hand, leg or the situation.)

At :25, :30, :45, :55, attack "after foot landing:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU4RHeOUxFM

Sports that are closer in generating power from the rear dominant hand, include football and baseball. To throw the farthest or fastest, they use the kinetic chain in generating power. No professional football or baseball player releases power "before or during foot landing." Here is a football video showing releasing power "after your foot landing:"

Performance Lab of California
Published on Jun 18, 2018

This is definitely past due on one of the best Quarterbacks in the NFL, Andrew Luck. Fun to watch with a will to win. One area I really noticed was his ability to get on his front hip and create rotation on that front hip. Hope you enjoy this breakdown and keep the video recommendations coming:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgQjROJIETM

"What's your thought on" my reply to your same question here? https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 5&start=90:
marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:The Baji back hand punch power generation can be looked at this way.

1. Before foot landing - The power generated from the counter-force from the ground. The hip then start to rotate. The body start to twist.
2. During foot landing - The hip rotation has reached to the maximum.

Because hip rotation is completed at foot landing, power is leaked downwards away from the horizontal force towards the opponent, as you stated here:
johnwang wrote:The reason is also simple. I can take advantage on my body weight (sinking force) and forward momentum....

If I land my foot first and strike later, I'll lose that "dropping force" with my body weight.


johnwang wrote:3. After foot landing - The bullet has fired out of the gun. The current power generation is over. The next power generation will start.

Because "power generation is over" at foot landing, you have eliminated the critical component of weight transfer and shoulder and trunk rotation after the lead leg lands—that transforms vertical ground reaction force to horizontal punch force.

This essential stage of the kinetic chain can be seen at 3:45 of the "Tim Lincecum 97 mph fastball analysis" video, as well as in the following two clips:

Image
Image

Eliminating this critical stage in the kinetic chain is a big loss in "back hand" or straight punch power generation as the following study supports.

Excerpts from "Kinematic and kinetic analysis of throwing a straight punch: the role of trunk
rotation in delivering a powerful straight punch," https://efsupit.ro/images/stories/30dec ... %20287.pdf:
RAT TONG-IAM1, PORNTHEP RACHANAVY2, CHAIPAT LAWSIRIRAT on December 08, 2017 wrote:The result showed straight punches had 3 stages, i.e., (1) starting position, (2) lead toe off, and (3) lead toe in. The results suggested that the final stage, lead toe in, was the most important in delivering powerful straight punches, and boxers used trunk rotation to transform vertical ground reaction force to horizontal punch force....

Image

At this stage, boxers used the lead leg as a pivot point and executed straight punches such that only lead leg supported the body weight and the rear leg bore no GRF. At this stage, GRF of the rear leg decreased, while GRF of the lead leg increased, which was exactly opposite from the starting position or the first stage. From Figure 1d, the directions of GRF of the lead leg and punch force were not in the same direction. As a result, the participants utilized the lead leg as a break to stabilize their movement.... As seen in Figure 2, the kinetic chain of straight punches occurred after 70% of total punching time meaning that the whole kinetic chain was created and ended at this final stage....

Trunk Rotation in Straight Punches
Image

Image

Image
Figure 1 shows phases of straight punches and GRFs for both legs.

Trunk rotation played significant role in transferring kinetic chain from the lower extremity to the upper extremity. Our results showed that the trunk was relatively unmoved at the beginning of punching as shown in Figure 2. The movement of trunk started approximately after 70% of total punching time (the right panel of Figure 2). The angular velocity tended to increase after this point. The participants, then, sped up trunk rotation after 80% of total punching time until impact.

The trunk rotation played crucial role in LTI or the final stage of punching. At LTI, the displacement angle of trunk rotation was greatest (at 80% of punching time). Angular velocity of trunk rotation increased as GRF of the lead leg increased while GRF of the rear leg decreased. The lead leg acted as a pivot point, while the rear leg pushed the trunk and the whole body of boxers forward to create punching momentum and, thus, punch force. Therefore, trunk rotation mechanically transferred vertical ground reaction forces to horizontal punching force. The peak angular velocity of trunk rotation was achieved at impact....

Image

The final stage, which was lead toe in, was crucial in delivering powerful force.

Now with the clips and study, would you agree that, with the straight punch, "punch and foot land at the same time" generates less power than "foot first and then punch after that (properly sequenced kinetic chain punch)?" If not, what part of the clips or study do you disagree with?
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:35 pm

Steve James wrote:The best way to test would simply to use a punch meter and see what gives the highest result.

I should get a punch meter myself in order to get a detail comparison.

marvin8 wrote:"What's your thought on" my reply to your same question here?

I have tried all 3 different ways

1. before,
2. during, and
3. after.

I can generate more power by using method 2 (from the sound come back from my striking dummy). That's just the way I train. It works for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f8GDD4 ... e=youtu.be
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby johnwang on Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:54 pm

The main purpose of this thread is not trying to repeat the discussion of "power generation", but to indicate that by using foot landing, the 'set up" for your attack can be simplified.

In the following clip, there are 8 hand moves that coordinate with 3 steps.

- 1st step coordinate with the 3rd hand move.
- 2nd step coordinate with the 5th hand move.
- 3rd step coordinate with the 8th hand move.

IMO, it's very different to train this 8 moves combo by using either before, or after method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_cAgYr ... e=youtu.be
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:57 pm

this stepping reminds me of n-mantis stepping in the punch
while pushing off the rear leg...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnG7PWGrx20&t=5s
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:58 pm

Face a wall standing in a bow stance stretch out one arm with clenched fist let’s say in a reverse punch way, let the fist slightly touch the wall then raise the front foot of the ground
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:17 am

klonk wrote:
As to foot arriving first, I tend not to do that, but it isn't a terrible idea. Karate is full of punches done that way, you get grounded and drive your punches from a very solid but momentarily immobile stance. I have in the past likened these punches to firing artillery from a mount fasted firmly to the ground. Doing it that way loses a brief instant of time, but it is very stable.

In each case, you need to avoid being foot-swept as you advance, but that is a problem shared by all three possible timings of the advance.

If I remember right you where into Shotokan-Karate ? so where I, my favorite strikes where Kizami tsuki and nagashi tsuki ( lead/jab punch & flowing punch) which do not make use of the two foot rooted stance, they worke great in sparring. http://www.dklsltd.com/shotokankarateun ... age17.html
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Re: The advantage of hand coordinate with foot landing

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:36 am

Face a wall standing in a bow stance stretch out one arm with clenched fist let’s say in a reverse punch way, let the fist slightly touch the wall then raise the front foot of the ground
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