Anti-striking

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:56 am

Here is a simple sparring rule:

- If you can punch on my head, you win that round.
- If I can get you into a clinch (either double under hooks, or double over hooks, or head lock), I win that round.

Test for 15 rounds (either you punch my head first, or I get you in clinch first) and whoever wins more that 7 rounds will be the winner that day.

In other words, my sparring partner can do anything that he wants on me. He doesn't have to worry about my kick, my punch, even my throw. He only have to stop me from doing a clinch. It can be a very civilized sparring.

Through the sparring process, I try to prove whether "anti-striking" is possible or not. I'll need a huge amount of data in order to prove it or dis-prove it.

What's your opinion on this?
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby bartekb on Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:35 pm

johnwang wrote:What's your opinion on this?

my opinion is - you will most likely get hit once or twice and then go to clinch - I doubt striker would be able to prevent it, and not beeing hit once ever is a very high threshold.
If a striker is REALLY good - this one strike might knock you out, most cases though you'll be damaged but will clinch.

Alternativelly, striker puts on gloves and protectors and just throws whatever he wants and you try to take him down - not just clinch. You will both train more things.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby Overlord on Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:38 pm

John,
Can your opponent use elbow and knee?
I know in certain Baji use elbow/knee as throw.
If this is the case, it’s dangerous to test,

Why do you propose such bizarre test?
The out come is dependent on the skills of each person.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:28 pm

I think that drills like that are great. I do the same thing with Daofa. One person attacks and the other can only defend and use movements from the bind (techniques from a position where the swords are touching - like clinching with a sword). It can be very challenging!
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:19 pm

bartekb wrote: my opinion is - you will most likely get hit once or twice and then go to clinch,....

That's why one strike to the head, that round is over and you win that round. It doesn't matter I can get a clinch after that or not. If you can hit on my head 15 times. You win all 15 rounds. You win that day and I lose that day.

Overlord wrote:Can your opponent use elbow and knee?

The out come is dependent on the skills of each person.

Everything is allowed. Otherwise it won't be realistic. But only punch on the head can win a round. All body shot won't be counted. Agree that the outcome depend on the skill of each person. This is why I intend to send 3 guys to collect their own data in local MMA gym. The 1 months (30 days) record is what I'm truly interested.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:55 pm

You are lucky to have three students that are willing to do that. And they are lucky to have you as a teacher. 我给力!
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby bartekb on Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:23 am

That's why one strike to the head, that round is over and you win that round. It doesn't matter I can get a clinch after that or not. If you can hit on my head 15 times. You win all 15 rounds. You win that day and I lose that day.


In my opinion if the striker is skilled and the shot does not have to knock a person out - just connect - so it can even be a light jab - the result would be - grappler will loose 99 / 100.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:24 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:UFC has featured high level grapplers (e.g., olympic and international champion wrestlers, judoka, BJJ, etc.) against other MAists, since Nov 11, 1993. Fights can be found on the internet.

But most of those record are for single leg or double legs. I'm only interested in the data for double under hooks, double over hooks, and head lock. In other words, what's the chance that when someone tries to knock my head off and I can still wrap his punching arm.

Sorry for the side track of the 3 ways to practice taiji discussion. I prefer the 4th way to practice Taiji. That is how can I use Taiji to achieve my personal goal such as "enter successfully and finish successfully".

Getting under hooks is common in the UFC. Some get standing guillotine. Most fighters get under hooks, when they clinch. A recent match was olympic gold medalist judoka Kayla Harrison vs Brittney Elkin PFL2 on June 21, 2018. Kayla used under hooks and no single leg or double legs. Most judoka in the UFC do not use single leg or double legs, as they are illegal by the IJF.

Grapplers in the UFC also face the problem: can they still clinch "when someone tries to knock their head off." What is the difference between your problem and high level grapplers in the UFC? If the problem is the same, you might use some of their strategies and tactics.

Is your question, what's the chance that when someone tries to knock my head off and I can still wrap his punching arm, before the arm is retracted?
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:51 am

marvin8 wrote:before the arm is retracted?

This is why the arm wrap should be done when your opponent tries to punch you. The window can be small and special skill/strategy will be needed.

marvin8 wrote:What is the difference between your problem and high level grapplers in the UFC?

There should not be any difference I assume. Some MMA guy does take arm wrap seriously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZaAflG ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:01 pm

bartekb wrote:In my opinion if the striker is skilled and the shot does not have to knock a person out - just connect - so it can even be a light jab - the result would be - grappler will loose 99 / 100.

It's not that easy to punch on your opponent's head when he uses "rhino guard".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r3rBxP ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:09 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:before the arm is retracted?

This is why the arm wrap should be done when your opponent tries to punch you. The window can be small and special skill/strategy will be needed.

Both videos you posted are demonstrations where "opponent tries to punch" without retracting. Watch the feeder, not the demonstrator.

Do you have a normal speed video of anyone (e.g., you, your students, anyone else) using this "special skill/strategy to arm wrap during this small window," before the arm is retracted?

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:What is the difference between your problem and high level grapplers in the UFC?

There should not be any difference I assume. Some MMA guy does take arm wrap seriously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZaAflG ... e=youtu.be

In your video, Bas demonstrated where the feeder is in grappling range and does not retract his punch. As mentioned, "Getting under hooks is common in the UFC. Some get standing guillotine. Most fighters get under hooks, when they clinch."

Here in a more recent, "serious," normal speed video, Bas Rutten defends against right straights that are retracted, from punching range. He does not teach the "arm wrap" in the "small window."

OfficialBasRutten
Published on Apr 2, 2015:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1QKpq4Gf3U

johnwang wrote:
bartekb wrote:In my opinion if the striker is skilled and the shot does not have to knock a person out - just connect - so it can even be a light jab - the result would be - grappler will loose 99 / 100.


It's not that easy to punch on your opponent's head when he uses "rhino guard".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r3rBxP ... e=youtu.be

At :03, :07, :09, :11, :24 and :27, it is easy to punch on Ronda's (olympic judo medalist) head when she tries to block Nunes' punch and grab Nunes' head with an extended arm. (There is no single leg or double legs by Ronda. She tries to get head lock by extending arm. You might add this to your data collection.):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7bGvi7-Db4

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Re: Anti-striking

Postby Steve James on Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:56 pm

Strategies, especially elaborate ones, rarely survive first contact with the enemy. ... That's simply because the enemy has his own plans.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:40 pm

Steve James wrote:Strategies, especially elaborate ones, rarely survive first contact with the enemy. ... That's simply because the enemy has his own plans.



Many years back in service, it was said the Russians used to complain.

"The problem with American Military strategy is that they don't follow it" ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby bjffm on Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:53 am

I am doing BJJ for about 20 years always with the purpose of using it with and against strikes. I am also doing 10 years russian and internal martial arts training.

We do a lot of isolation drills like that, for example:

A has punching, clinching and kicking while B (the attacker) only has his boxing skills

A has punching, clinching and kicking while B (the attacker) only has his kicking and boxing skills

A has punching, clinching and kicking while B (the attacker) only has his kicking, clinching and boxing skills

A assumes B (the attacker) is the better puncher and try to clinch without getting involved into a punching exchange

These kind of stuff we do on a regular base and in my experience you have two ways to clinch:

1. You are an awsome wrestler who is fast and explosive

2. You have good timing and deceptive punching and moving skills

Personally I work on the second because I doubt you will become a faster and more explosive wrestler in your fourties;-)

Of course against average guys on the street a basic clinch approach is possible but as soon someone has basic wrestling skills you either have better wrestling or good striking to set it up.

Here is some stuff how I approach the clinch or the striking distance:



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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:04 pm

bjffm wrote:you have two ways to clinch:

1. You are an awsome wrestler who is fast and explosive
2. You have good timing and deceptive punching and moving skills

Personally I work on the second because I doubt you will become a faster and more explosive wrestler in your fourties;-)

You talk about fast, explosive, good timing, and moving skills. It all has to do with individual's training which is difficult to be applied for people with less MA training.

I try to use different approach which may not have anything to do with individual's MA skill/ability. I want to look at what make a punch to be effective.

1. space - you need space to generate your punching speed and power.
2. path - you need a clear path for your punch to travel.
3. target - you need a clear target to punch.

If I try not to give you 1, 2, and 3, your punch won't be effective. In order for me to do that, I need to

1. extend my arms in front of your face. This not only can block your vision, it also squeeze your space.
2. put my arms in your striking path. When you punch, you fists have to deal with my arms first before it can reach to my face.
3. hide my head behind my arms and between my shoulders.

My "rhino guard" can help me to achieve that.
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