Anti-striking

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:25 pm

everything wrote:who is Cormier? Also, is that a slow motion gif, or are they just super tired?

Not slow motion. Daniel Cormier is the winner, black guy. He's 39 years old. He moves kind of slow but has good setup and timing. He trained the finishing move having studied Stipe's lower of his arms when exiting a clinch. I believe he is known for his greco wrestling.

Here's part of his background from wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Cormier:
After high school, he attended Colby Community College, where he was a two-time junior college national champion at 197 pounds, in 1998 and 1999. His record was 61-0, with 33 falls. After Colby, Cormier transferred to Division I wrestling powerhouse Oklahoma State University. In 2000, Cormier went 26-5. He entered the national tournament as the #3 seed at 184 pounds, but fell one match short of becoming an all-American (given to the top 8 finishers in each weight class). In 2001 Cormier went 27-5. He became an all-American by reaching the finals of the 184 pound weight class, where he lost to Cael Sanderson 8-4. His final record was 53-10, with 27 falls. 6 of Cormier's losses were against Cael Sanderson.

After graduating from OSU with a degree in sociology, Cormier went on to have a successful career in Freestyle Wrestling. He was the senior U.S. national champion every year from 2003–2008, and represented team USA at the world level for each of those years. He competed at 96 kg, or 211.6 lbs. At the 2004 Olympics he took 4th place after losing to Khadzhimurat Gatsalov in the semi-finals.[17] Cormier was also a member of the 2008 Olympic wrestling team for the USA, where he was named team captain, but was pulled from competition due to kidney failure, brought on by excessive weight cutting.[18]

In the non-Olympic years, Cormier reached the top 5 at the Wrestling World Championships on two separate occasions, 2003 and 2007. He won a bronze medal at the 2007 competition. Cormier also won a gold medal at the quadrennial Pan American Games in 2003. Another major accomplishment came in 2005 where Cormier became one of a select few Americans to win a gold medal at the Golden Grand-Prix Ivan Yarygin, held in Krasnoyarsk, Russia, and considered by many to be the toughest wrestling tournament in the world.

Cormier also competed and represented the Oklahoma Slam team in the now defunct Real Pro Wrestling league and was crowned a champion in the first and only season in 2004, for the 211 lb weight class . While he competed in Real Pro Wrestling, he was also teammates with fellow Strikeforce mixed martial arts competitor Muhammed Lawal, who also was a season 1 champion, in the 184 lb weight class.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby johnwang on Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:51 pm

marvin8 wrote:You "agree" that Daniel is using rhino guard here, correct?

No! He is not using rhino guard.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby everything on Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:23 pm

they look insanely gassed out. just checking.

but anyway that speed still seems like a good speed to try out whatever the test is that we're talking about. sorry lost track.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:05 pm

everything wrote:they look insanely gassed out. just checking.

but anyway that speed still seems like a good speed to try out whatever the test is that we're talking about. sorry lost track.

johnwang wrote:- If I can get you into a clinch (either double under hooks, or double over hooks, or head lock), I win that round. . . .

Through the sparring process, I try to prove whether "anti-striking" is possible or not. I'll need a huge amount of data in order to prove it or dis-prove it.

What's your opinion on this?

johnwang wrote:Let me define the term "arm wrap". An "arm wrap" is to move your hand toward your opponent's shoulder. You then put his arm under your arm with your palm control under his under arm and your shoulder control his wrist area. So when you wrap your opponent's arm, you are not aiming his arm. You are aiming his shoulder. You then slide your hand back along his upper arm. This will pull your opponent toward you.

If A's arms can pass B's head, A can wrap B's arm even if B may retract his punch.

Your sparring tests are to determine if you can enter the clinch range and get an "arm wrap" or "headlock," as shown in the first throw in this MMA video, correct? If not, can you please explain the difference? (Part of the confusion is your OP says arm wrap or headlock. Then in your later posts, you say arm wrap and headlock is important.)

Image
Last edited by marvin8 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anti-striking

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:29 am

oragami_itto wrote:Most evident from this discussion is that we have completely different understandings of what Peng Jing is and how to use it. The rhino gaurd is, in taijiquan terms and my opinion, just another example of double weighting.

There are a few instances of the strike I described in this demo, that's about as good as I can get for you
https://youtu.be/Cm5N01ZzZ8A

johnwang wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:The only part of the rhino guard I really disagree with is the hand clasping, it seems like that would slow down the transition from guard to grappling or clinch or whatever. I don't think that it adds enough to be worth it


I have tried different methods.

1. fingers locked. . . .

1 is still the strongest. The main purpose of 1 is to give beginners confidence. When they feel that their double arms is stronger than their opponent's single arm, they can be more relax and that will make the outcome to be in their favor.

. . . and rhino guard violates the six harmonies: The hands harmonize with the feet.

Opponent can use "double arms," too. Notice that demo starts from long range —> kicking —> punching and ends with uppercut to head from side door, after opponent is double weighted:

Image

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Your definition of rhino guard is undebatable. If you can arm wrap a punch before it retracts, it is ideal.

The entire Taiji principle "If you move, I'll move before you do." is ideal. My requirement is much less. If you move, I'll move at the same time (not before you do). . . .
2. When my opponent moves in, I move in too.

Since that day, the "head on collusion" became a very important part of my daily training.


Image

First create advantageous position (deceptively if possible), opponent double weights, then finish. This is safer, faster and better timing. "Head on collusion" or "force against force" is more dangerous as opponent can counter.

johnwang wrote:Let me define the term "arm wrap". An "arm wrap" is to move your hand toward your opponent's shoulder. You then put his arm under your arm with your palm control under his under arm and your shoulder control his wrist area. So when you wrap your opponent's arm, you are not aiming his arm. You are aiming his shoulder.

If A's arms can pass B's head, A can wrap B's arm even if B may retract his punch.

Image

This is not an accurate image of how a skilled fighter punches. From punching range (outside of clinching range), a skilled fighter takes a bladed shoulders stance, throws a setup punch(s), reads clincher's reaction, then punches head as rhino guard separates in to two arms or from an angle if closed. A's arms cannot pass B's head. B can punch A's head (after setup punch), while A cannot reach B's head.

The physics are one extended arm has a longer reach than two separated extended arms. Therefore, a more accurate picture is B can punch A's head (after setup punch), while A cannot reach B's head.

Typically, a skilled fighter will extend his arm(s), hand fight with rhino guard, get opponent double weighted, then punches in second stage of rhino guard (as it opens or from side door [angle] if closed). Again, close enough to land a punch but outside of the clinching range and reach of rhino guard headlock.

johnwang wrote:
bartekb wrote:In my opinion if the striker is skilled and the shot does not have to knock a person out - just connect - so it can even be a light jab - the result would be - grappler will loose 99 / 100.

It's not that easy to punch on your opponent's head when he uses "rhino guard".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r3rBxP ... e=youtu.be

Problems with rhino guard and it's clasped hands, include:
• It is double weighted.
• Violates six harmonies.
• Shortens your reach — Physics: B can punch A's head, while A cannot reach B's head.
• Sacrifices rest of body (e.g., groin, knees, legs, liver, kidneys, etc.) to protect head.
• Face is exposed to uppercut from the side door.

Note: Clasped hands (rhino guard) or two arms extended (e.g., zombie arms) is not necessary to "invite your opponent's arms to punch outside of your arms." There are better methods (used in the UFC) which can avoid the above problems with the rhino guard and zombie arms.

johnwang wrote:Here is a simple sparring rule:

- If you can punch on my head, you win that round.
- If I can get you into a clinch (either double under hooks, or double over hooks, or head lock), I win that round.

Test for 15 rounds (either you punch my head first, or I get you in clinch first) and whoever wins more that 7 rounds will be the winner that day.

In other words, my sparring partner can do anything that he wants on me. He doesn't have to worry about my kick, my punch, even my throw. He only have to stop me from doing a clinch. It can be a very civilized sparring.

Through the sparring process, I try to prove whether "anti-striking" is possible or not. I'll need a huge amount of data in order to prove it or dis-prove it.

What's your opinion on this?

Getting double under hooks, or double over hooks, or head locks is a problem most clinchers and grapplers in the UFC face.

Your sparring test is too restrictive for the clincher. Without any offensive weapons, your clincher needs to defend through kicks (e.g., to knees, groin), punches, extended guards, traps, and elbows to clinch the fighter.

Most clinchers and grapplers in the UFC have a game plan using kicks or punches, as a necessity, to enter a clinch.

What's your opinion on this?
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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