Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:03 pm

I meant the whole topic was moot
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Re: Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:45 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Wu Wei, my Doge.


Since windy wants to throw shade on this and I'm at a regular computer and feeling spunky, allow me to elaborate.

First, I don't believe Taiji has a singular "entering" or "finishing" strategy. The answer to the question could be small enough to fit in your sleeve and too big to fill the universe if you want to get to the nitty gritty of it, and neither would adequately convey a useful guide to achieving it.

In short, wu wei in that we have no preference for entering, not even a desire to enter. The taiji strategy is to be evasive and avoid conflict, but more importantly to move second but arrive first. At the partner's slightest stirring we intercept and scatter or smother it, responding to speed with speed and deliberateness with deliberateness. In a single word the entering strategy is following.

The finish strategy is again wu wei in that it's whatever you want to make it or the situation demands. Taijiquan achieved is not slapping meat together and fighting for leverage, but total control of the opponent. The more skill a taijiquan exponent has, the more skill they can take from an opponent. I think I'm at the point where I can take a middle school tkd kid, so, you know... progress.

But thinking beyond my own lack of skill, do you want to bounce their head off a wall or the ground, dislocate something, throw them back a bit, crumple em, what do you want? When it's working it's like a cat playing with a lizard. If you haven't had the joy of that experience on either side I wonder what you're doing bothering with boring old taijiquan anyhow.

What's the finish strategy for shaui jiao, crush skull, eat brain?
Last edited by oragami_itto on Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:07 pm

try it describes a training process that eventually becomes natural and spontaneous allowing one to do whatever they want to do without conscious thought still using the process trained

only by going through a rigorous training process does this type of action become possible
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Postby I-mon on Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:20 pm

wayne hansen wrote:If you study tai chi this question is moot
It is everywhere
Pushing
Walking 4 hands
Ta lu
San shou
San da
Form application
I can understand if people only have a solo form with no application how it might be a mystery
Tai chi is not about strategy and technique it is about a path to awareness and free form application
Lots of two man work

I was working on two man pole with my students the other night
It is all neutralising and entering
I was blown out by some of the entering they did spontaneously


Wayne what is the "Walking 4 hands" that you mentioned?
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Re: Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:29 pm

The stage between fixed step pushing and Ta lu
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Re: Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Postby I-mon on Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:39 pm

Sounds good, don't know that I've ever seen it.
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Re: Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:10 pm

I-mon wrote:Wayne what is the "Walking 4 hands" that you mentioned?

From “Tai Chi Chuan is not Just a Solo Exercise Anymore.” Blackbelt Magazine, Sep 1979.
https://books.google.com/books?id=F9UDA ... 22&f=false:
Bill Danks on September 1979 wrote:
Sharp said there next comes a very interesting section known as Four Hands. The first part consists of a standing form where two person use both hands on each other to perform push up, pull back, press forward and push techniques.

After this comes a second part called Walking Four Hands, the instructor continued, first with corresponding, then with opposite steps. As with previous Standing Four Hands and the Joined Hands techniques as well, the movements are always soft and circular, despite the speed at which they are performed.

Walking is done to both a three-two rhythm, with each partner advancing and retreating while using the same kinds of steps, and a three-three rhythm with several changes incorporated into the pattern. Sharp also teaches the Small Circle, a technique developed from another “internal” system known as pa kua or eight diagrams boxing.

The practice of Four Hands is very important, Sharp added. The coordination of hand and foot movements in ever-changing patterns covering different distances and tempos develops everything previously learned to a higher level. Just as all basics of tai chi chuan are contained in the solo exercises, all of the later advanced phases of techniques are built upon Four Hands.

However, Four Hands itself doesn’t quite complete the tai chi practice of pushing hands, the instructor explained. That honor belongs to a final section called Ta Lu or Long Pull-Back….
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Re: Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:02 pm

Sounds like he may be a student of Raymond Chung
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Re: Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Postby Bao on Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:36 am

wayne hansen wrote:Tai chi is not about strategy and technique it is about a path to awareness and free form application


Agree with that Tai Chi "is about a path to awareness and free form application."

But there is a whole lot strategy to be found in the Tai Chi classics as well as in texts from Tai Chi masters. To say that Tai Chi has no strategy or that it's not taught in Tai Chi is a bit misleading.

Form a fighting perspective, you need to understand:

Timing
Where to look at and how to read an opponent
When to enter and how
How to handle distance and angle
How to connect with an opponents center
Your opponents attention
How to deal with different strikes and kicks
How to deal with takedowns and throwing attempts
how to deliver a good punch

I doubt that most students get all of this from Tai Chi partner work, but if they do, well then it's fine. I wouyld suggest that those points should be broken down and practiced separately. For instance, you need to punch at something to understand how your body reacts upon impact. Form practice is not enough even to learn how to deliver a relaxed Tai Chi punch.

But if they can get all of this in class, they still don't get the experience of how good fighters like many boxers, thai- & kick-boxers, move and act. So regardless of what is taught in class, for people that have no experience from other types of practice or fighting, it's still necessary to get out from the school environment.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Postby GrahamB on Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:07 am

Isn't "Tai Chi finish strategy" the meal in the restaurant once the seminar is over?
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Re: Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Postby Trick on Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:55 am

GrahamB wrote:Isn't "Tai Chi finish strategy" the meal in the restaurant once the seminar is over?

Doesn’t it always end up in an Chinese restaurant ? Too predictive.
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Re: Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:46 am

Bao of course you teach how to punch seperate to the form
It all depends on how you teach the form
Take back fist parry punch
If you teach as a string of movements in class and move on to , as if shutting a door the next class,nothing is learned
However if you work on BPP until it is right ,show applications ,variations and strategic use it is another matter
That is how I teach and how I believe it should be taught
I was teaching pole the other night and the students weren't getting one application right
So I said,can't you see this is just BPP ,so we went through various applications of BPP mainly yang and Wu empty hand
We then went back to the pole and spear applications
They got it
As for needing to go outside the school I never found this was warented due to the fact my class was always full of people who had mastered other arts
If I needed to show say an aikido way of doing something I would call over PHIL,white crane John ,karate peter,hapkido richard,judo Greg
We would practice there way then I would show the tai chi way and we would practice that
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Re: Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Postby Rhen on Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:36 am

oragami_itto wrote:Wu Wei, my Doge.


you're a dork
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Re: Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:40 am

Rhen wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Wu Wei, my Doge.


you're a dork

That's the general consensus. Live your own truth, I say.
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Re: Taiji entering strategy and Taiji finish strategy

Postby johnwang on Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:28 pm

Bao wrote:Form a fighting perspective, you need to understand:

Timing
Where to look at and how to read an opponent
When to enter and how
How to handle distance and angle
How to connect with an opponents center
Your opponents attention
How to deal with different strikes and kicks
How to deal with takedowns and throwing attempts
how to deliver a good punch.

That's a good list. I may add in just 1 more and that is to be able to predict your opponent's respond from your attack.

For example, when you move your arm in circular and try to contact your opponent's arm, if he moves his arm the same direction as your arm path, those 2 arms will never meet. If you suddenly reverse the direction of your circle, you can ambush his arm. A downward parry immediate followed by an upward arm wrap can be a good example.

Is this in Taiji form solo training? I don't think so.
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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