Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

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Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

Postby johnwang on Wed May 21, 2008 9:20 pm

Just watched an old Frank Shamrock vs. Baroni and Gung Le's 4th MMA fight back in 6/22/2007. What interest to me was even Shamrock is a great ground fighter, his opponent Baroni still took him down twice without problem. Gung Le was not a ground fighter and his opponent couldn't even take him down once. I believe in this year the match between Gung Le and Frank Shamrock, Shamrock still couldn't take Gung Le down. It just makes no sense to me. How can any stand up fighter has better resistance against take down than the ground fighter? It's just like to say that "It's easier to take a judo guy down than to take a boxer down".

One conclusion that I can draw is that since a stand up fighter doesn’t like to go down, in his training, he trains not to be taken down seriously. Since a ground fighter loves to go down, he may not train take down resistance that serious.

Would like to hear different opinions on this.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed May 21, 2008 9:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

Postby Ian on Wed May 21, 2008 9:33 pm

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Re: Do you think ground fight can weaken your stand up ability

Postby Eisenhans on Wed May 21, 2008 9:37 pm

I guess it depends on the style? That's kinda the same thing you say: For example, Modern Judo, JJ, etc, as you said, they love the ground more or less, they are accustomed to it, so why resist the takedown?

Strking is the opposite, but as I said, it's also depending on what the style is teaching (Modern Boxing has no rooting at all and instead uses "dancing" footwork - "Classic" Boxing is already quite different in this regard. ), rooting or no rooting, etc. Traditionally, here in Germany, they say "A (modern) wrestler always defeats a (modern) boxer". In older times this wasn't such a big deal - either because Boxing and Wrestling was almost always taught together or because "Classic" Boxing is so different (considering stances, guard, and stuff) - but nowadays, it's basically proverbial.

Nowadays, most people use either Modern Boxing or Modern MT as their striking part, both of which aren't exactly known for strong rooting (ie. easy to take down). Modern Judo is basically the same (because it has become a strength oriented sport). SJ is more like classic grappling as in "I don't need a mat, my opponent needs a mat" (ie. take down, but do not get taken down, by using rooting, sprawling or whatever).

tl;dr: Mainly depends on your style of training, imho.
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Re: Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

Postby FigureFour on Wed May 21, 2008 9:50 pm

doesnt Cung Le have a college wrestling background?
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Re: Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

Postby CaliG on Wed May 21, 2008 10:44 pm

Yes, Cung Li was also a highschool wrestler.

Basically I think he knew that if he could keep it on his feet then he'd win.

He did that and won. A lot of stand-up MMA fighters pull this off.

If the grappler can't get them down and control them in the first round then the striker has a pretty shot at winning because the grappler gets tired and the striker has faster hands and feet.

However if the grappler does get the striker down right away then he has a pretty good shot at ending the fight before it even the striker has a chance to do his thing.

In general I think throws and takedowns are usually the last thing emphasiezed in MMA. Usually people train in BJJ and MT, but then again most of the best American fighters come from a wrestling background and it's no wonder they do so well it's hard to impose your game on someone if you can't take them down but they can take you down at will.
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Re: Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

Postby CaliG on Wed May 21, 2008 10:53 pm

Btw, John Wang if you get a chance watch some Ultimate Fighter.

It's like a reality show/qualifiers for the UFC.

I think it be interesting for you to see how they, think, plan and train for their fights.

In fact I'm going to record some for my own teacher so he could check it out.
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Re: Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

Postby johnwang on Wed May 21, 2008 11:12 pm

What's the difference between Ultimate Fighter and UFC?
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Re: Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

Postby CaliG on Wed May 21, 2008 11:20 pm

In Ultimate Fighter they take 18 or so fighters and they split them into 2 teams.

Then they train with a couple of the UFC's best for a couple of months, then every few days there's a fight.

If you win you're still in the competition to win a UFC contract, if you lose you get to train but you aren't going to get a contract.

So basically it's a show that kind of goes behind the scenes in MMA. I like it because you get to know the fighters, their styles and then see them in action.

In fact in season 2 they had a striker, Zac Como, who was out doing qigong in the backyard and he actually did pretty well for himself despite being picked last.

You can find it on netflix and spike tv.
Last edited by CaliG on Wed May 21, 2008 11:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

Postby johnwang on Thu May 22, 2008 12:06 am

That's sound very good policy. Thanks for the information.
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Re: Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

Postby jkuo on Thu May 22, 2008 6:10 am

I don't think Shamrock was trying very hard to take Cung Le down. That's not to say that Cung Le wouldn't have had a good take down defense, but it's not a completely fair assessment from that fight. Shamrock was intentionally slugging it out stand up to prove that he could, which worked out great for Cung Le.

Anyhow, in my limited experience boxers can be difficult to take down unless you can get them in a clinch somehow. They'll try to dance away and escape if you gain a favorable position. I'm curious to here what other people have to say also.
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Re: Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

Postby dragontigerpalm on Thu May 22, 2008 9:59 am

Western boxers don't train to avoid being taken down - it's not in their mindset or game plan. They train to be evasive - bob and weave, slipping, dancing, strike and move etc. -to avoid the strike. On the other hand they don't train how to deal with or move on contact that involves hands that stick, grab, pull and push, chin na etc.
For judo guys it's all about moving on and with contact. It's a tough question but my guess is that while a boxer is illusive, if and once sticky contact is made he would be easier to take down than a judo guy who wants to remain upright.
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Re: Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

Postby kenneth fish on Thu May 22, 2008 11:19 am

I would agree about the mindset - its not something that most boxers think about - they are training to fight other boxers, not wrestlers.
On another note, one of my students was teaching at the FBI. He was harassed by another instructor, a BJJ guy. My student got tired of it and basically said "ok, lets see what you've got". The BJJ guy tried numerous attacks, trying to bring my student down. It ended with my student cold cocking the guy (who seemed to think that it was unfair....)
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Re: Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

Postby wkfung108 on Thu May 22, 2008 12:16 pm

Out of curiosity, what was "unfair" about it?

Not to retrash a BTDT, but I just don't understand why someone interested in self defense would study BJJ as a PRIMARY art. (Nor, quite honestly, do I understand why it's taught to the Marines or the FBI.) I think it's probably good to have a working knowledge in your metaphorical hip pocket, but groundfighting as your primary mode of real life H2H?? I live in NYC, and here, even if the BJJ guy achieves the ideal scenario, he's still lost: most of the sidewalks are littered with trash and dog feces. Who would want to roll around in that? ??? :P


kenneth fish wrote:I would agree about the mindset - its not something that most boxers think about - they are training to fight other boxers, not wrestlers.
On another note, one of my students was teaching at the FBI. He was harassed by another instructor, a BJJ guy. My student got tired of it and basically said "ok, lets see what you've got". The BJJ guy tried numerous attacks, trying to bring my student down. It ended with my student cold cocking the guy (who seemed to think that it was unfair....)
Last edited by wkfung108 on Thu May 22, 2008 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

Postby johnwang on Thu May 22, 2008 12:40 pm

This is one of the concerns that I have. If people integrate the ground fight into their throwing art, they may have better ground fight skill (PLUS) but their resistence against taking dwon may be weaker (MINUS).

If pepole no longer care about their "rooting" then how can they have strong "rooting"?

Here is one example that if one doesn't have "rooting": http://johnswang.com/sc9.wmv
Last edited by johnwang on Thu May 22, 2008 12:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Is it easier to take a Judo guy down than a boxer down?

Postby Royal Dragon on Thu May 22, 2008 2:11 pm

John, that page is blank.
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