Why thé death of master yang Cheng fu mysterious?

[Trick]

The dao is for actually fighting.

originally a horseback weapon. Nowadays a ceremonial and dress weapon - The Saber - https://www.warhistoryonline.com/histor ... men-x.html

[origami_itto]

It definitely has its use, good use and its own advantages in the right context. If you don't get it, then you don't get it. I couldn't care less whatever. Just throwing out some genuine information so others won't be misguided by your ignorant BS.

I don't get it. Show me.

I am ignorant. Educate me.

Take your straight sword and show me how you fight with it.

It's a long time since it's been relevant. Prove me wrong. Show me.

??
Olympic fencing - epee and foil. Or academic fencing that use sharp blades.

Yeah, that's the western tradition that wayne was shitting on. Someone who only studies wudang/taiji sword would be woefully outclassed at even an amateur level. That's why I invited those that doubt me to take their skills to a HEMA club.

[origami_itto]

The dao is for actually fighting.

originally a horseback weapon. Nowadays a ceremonial and dress weapon - The Saber - https://www.warhistoryonline.com/histor ... men-x.html

[origami_itto]

I'll let Bob talk for me on this...
No I mean Yeun-ming...

Wait no, it's actually Robert Young, and they all agree with me.
From https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?p=409176&sid=a82dcd34848abc22900e450e9362b754#p409176

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=297594

Old discussion from the forum - Started out as a discussion of Li Jing-lin's Yang style taiji but the sword discussion followed.

Below is a post by Yuen-ming who always adds something good to the "mix":



Robert Young wrote:
At the end of this book, it lists dozens of people that learned from Li. Lots of them were students from NanJing CMA Institute, including my GM Han. The clips posted earlier are not Yang's Tai Chi Jian actually, because the moves do not match the Yang's Tai Chi Jian scripts. You can get the script from Chen Wei-Ming's book about Yang's Tai Chi. or, here http://www.embracethemoon.com/perspecti ... sword.htm/. People can google it on the internet.

Modern day Yang style sword, and by that I mean the form transmitted below Yang Chengfu, is in fact a derivation of Wudang Jian. The form was devised by Chen Weiming's group who had tight contact with General Li.
The early Taiji sword form(s) is quite different, and was passed down by a few of Banhou and Jianhou's disciples.

While it is true that most styles have sword or other weapons practice, Taijiquan weapons (traditionally) have a very specific approach and flavor so they are very different from most of the other styles. This is easy to be seen in the movement but especially in paired practice.

Wudang sword originally, as passed down by Song Weiyi, had no fixed pattern and forms were devised by some of his disciples (Li Jinglin invented some, Guo Chifeng others etc) based on their experience.
The transmission originally was very comprehensive and included neigong and various basic exercises done without the sword, including Daoist hand patterns modeled after the stars. Then single pattern sword exercises down to free-form.
LI Jinglin and some other disciples found it hard to pass the transmission in this traditional way so they modified the curriculum to match the new situation (having many students etc).

The influence of Li Jinglin's sword was enormous in Chinese martial arts, as he was an eclectic and famous pratictioner, so a lot of sword practice after his time was in a way or another influenced by him.

Actual Wudang sword nowadays is basically gone. In Taijiquan vein what remains are a few forms, nice to watch but totally useless in combat and in general to develop any skill.

YM

Once again, though, I reiterate.... Show me.

[Steve James]

The difference between jians, longswords, daos, and machetes is that people are killed with machetes every day, and nobody has seen anyone killed with a jian or longsword. Well, except accidentally.

Remember the story about the 1911 .45 being developed to combat Moros who would "run amok" in the Philippines. Since, no ones had any practical experience, I'd bet that it's not so easy to stop someone with a jian. Then again, the traditional tcc jian is very flexible (yeah, same goes for "show" daos). I'm not sure that it would work well against someone armored. Otoh, a sword breaker wouldn't affect it much.

So, I'd bet that jians intended for combat would be stiffer and probably a bit shorter. I mean, true, a dao needs more space to swing. But, the blade can be held in close quarters, like half-sword. I'm not sure that jians require less space; they might need more. Anyway, for your enjoy

[origami_itto]

The difference between jians, longswords, daos, and machetes is that people are killed with machetes every day, and nobody has seen anyone killed with a jian or longsword. Well, except accidentally.

Remember the story about the 1911 .45 being developed to combat Moros who would "run amok" in the Philippines. Since, no ones had any practical experience, I'd bet that it's not so easy to stop someone with a jian. Then again, the traditional tcc jian is very flexible (yeah, same goes for "show" daos). I'm not sure that it would work well against someone armored. Otoh, a sword breaker wouldn't affect it much.

So, I'd bet that jians intended for combat would be stiffer and probably a bit shorter. I mean, true, a dao needs more space to swing. But, the blade can be held in close quarters, like half-sword. I'm not sure that jians require less space; they might need more. Anyway, for your enjoy

The one I own is combat-capable, sharp edge, proper carbon content, a little wiggle but not floppy like the wu shu garbage.
Fighting with Taiji jian is just a much more difficult proposition than pretty much any other weapon. The forms don't even include blade grasping techniques to make use of the blunt lower third. They've got all these sweeping arcs that a straight sword is going to have a hard time being effective with.

But most importantly, NOBODY SPARS.

They're doing their pretty little dance and imagining themselves dancing atop the bamboo forest but they've never taken a weapon like object and tried to hit somebody who didn't want to be hit and was also trying to hit you back.

Sure, we got the sancaisek but that's just another dance. If you don't take it to the point of actually TRYING the stuff it's all just theoretical. The high school student staring at the map of Europe that they one day hope to backpack.

The map is not the territory.

If you're not getting better, entropy is making you worse, and if you stopped learning decades ago, your knowledge is less useful every day.

[windwalker]

So, I'd bet that jians intended for combat would be stiffer and probably a bit shorter. I mean, true, a dao needs more space to swing. But, the blade can be held in close quarters, like half-sword. I'm not sure that jians require less space; they might need more. Anyway, for your enjoy

You would win the bet...

A good friend of mine with his collection

The Jan's in his collection were not very flexible, a little bit heavy and short.
One thing should be noted. Due to the type of material used to make swords back then, expected real world use of them
The movements dynamic's are different, not done in the same manor of today with demo weapons.

[windwalker]

A sword coffin,,,

He mentioned in the old days, swords we sent back to the families in their own coffins...

[windwalker]

"For a specific example of this awareness, a modern sabreur who picks up a sabre with the weight and balance of period originals will find it heavy. Of the three surviving weapons sabre, oddly enough, is the lightest of the three. [8] If they attempt to play the game they do today with yesterday’s weapon they will quickly appreciate how much has changed."

2 person sets were invented to train with...allowing movement, timing, and understanding to be developed.
Intent, has to be there for it to work, if not the timing is off, one will be cut or stabbed...




Rick Wing and Arthur Chin Double Dagger vs Spear

[Bao]

There's as much to learn from the dao as any other weapon. It's not the tool's fault if someone doesn't know how to use it.

He knows how to use it, better than anyone else I've seen. The same for the other weapons as well. The only person I've met who really knew how to practically use the traditional weapons. He just didn't think the broadsword could add anything to tai chi other than on a fundamental level. If he had taught another art he might have put more value on it.

I'm not sure that jians require less space

Do you even understand the difference between a Jian or a dao? Have you held and practiced both of them? It's like asking about if a hand gun or a cannon requires more space.

The answer is obvious as the slimmer appearance of the Jian means you can use a Jian efficiently with smaller movements. The dao is larger and relies more on its weight, which means you need more space to make efficient use of the weight. Sure, you can use a dao to only stab and thrust, but it would be much more clumsy and that is not how you normally practice its use.

[origami_itto]

All depending on the specific weapon.

Dao can refer to at least a dozen different specific weapons. The most lasting variation being the modern machete.

You can wield A sharp dao effectively in a phone booth. Since you can put your hand on the back of the weapon you've got all your strength available even if you can't generate momentum by swinging.
That also means it's easier to keep the dangerous parts pointed at the person you don't like in tight quarters with the same technique.

EVERYTHING is contextual. Both the weapon, the situation, the opponents weapon.

Skill plays a large part though at a certain point the weapons are intended to overcome those gaps.

Most importantly, what's the point? Are you really under the impression you're going to get caught out with a jian? Where is this imagined "combat" to take place? Are we really engaging in realistic training or is that just a story we tell ourselves?

Realistically, I'm never going to defend myself with a jian.

Most likely if I need a weapon I'll have a gun, stick, or knife handy.

The Taiji dao and stick forms have a lot more to offer in terms of practically.

The sword is fun, great training for the yi and extending the qi, which is as Wayne said critical for learning to deal with another living human being.

The real life "combat" context is not likely.

I take issue with "combat" being used to describe any civilian hobby exercise, no matter how "alive" and "realistic" they think they are, honestly.

If you can call out sick it isn't combat.

[windwalker]

Sword fighting training and usage



https://maartensfs.wixsite.com/shanzhaimen/media

[origami_itto]

Sword fighting training and usage



https://maartensfs.wixsite.com/shanzhaimen/media

Two hand grip... hands on back of the blade....

[johnwang]

Some old video of Jian, Dao, and Miaodao forms to share.

[wayne hansen]

There is a reason why SAS carry the Fairbairne-Sykes a short jian and grunts carry a Bowie a short utilitarian broadsword
One is better for killing one for cracking open oysters
No matter how many times you post it dosent make up for the fact u have no real training in either
I have never used either in combat but have trained with those that have
I have faced knives for real on two occasions both before I had any real training and I came out uncut
I have a student who holds teaching certificates in both KI and Lameco
He came to train with me straight from training with someone who travels the world teaching as the worlds number one knife fighter who taught him Tulisan knife fighting
I showed him how he already had all the stuff he had learned in the knife and sword forms
I then showed him how to use the San Shou forms with both fighters having a knife
He went back and told his teacher how effective it was
Put yourself in the phone box with the FS or the Bowie
I know which one I would choose
The sword is to teach you special attributes of movement
If you don’t have the basics you can only guess what they are
Fist pole spear knife sword no fist it is a path
When I see someone doing sword forms I look to how long it takes before they threaten themselves with their own sword
It usually happens before they transfer it to the right hand