Why thé death of master yang Cheng fu mysterious?

[Steve James]

The names sword and knife are just western translations often used

Of course, but not all double edged weapons are jians. Sure, you can call them such, but a dagger is not used like a sword. That photo windwalker posted is not something one would do with a jian, unless it's so short that it's a dagger. In fact, terminologies may differ but often are linked to length. There's a dao, and then there's a da dao. In FMA am espada is usually twice the length of a daga. Otherwise, they have exactly the same shape and edge. A tanto is not a short wakazaki or katana.

Anyway, a F-S fighting knife is sharp from point to hilt. And, an equally if not superior weapon is the khukri. It's another multipurpose knife, and it's only sharp on one edge. F-S's design isn't better than the classic Roman stiletto.

[origami_itto]

There must be alcohol involved
The main difference is I have been doing the sword daily for over 30 years
Do you even know it
Three sections to the sword what a revelation
So if it is broken down to one section is it not a sword

You've been doing a dance daily for over 30 years. That doesn't equate to knowing fuck-all about sword fighting.

The three sections of the blade are of different sharpness and thickness and are used for different purposes. The FS lacks them.

If you don't understand what that difference means, you do not understand the first thing about the sword you claim to have mastered.

If you don't understand the implications in handling in terms of technique, range, leverage, timing.. well.. FUCK every single aspect of armed conflict between an 11 inch dagger and a 29 inch sword...

It's not even a question of IF, man, you're just ...

You know what, you're absolutely right, sifu. It's the same exact thing, wtf was I thinking.

[Trick]

Yeah, that's the western tradition that wayne was shitting on. Someone who only studies wudang/taiji sword would be woefully outclassed at even an amateur level. That's why I invited those that doubt me to take their skills to a HEMA club.

i don’t think Wayne shitting on the western tradition of Olympic fencing, actually the only one here shitting on things seem to be you especially with the foul wordings you often air……and please don’t again come apologetic about that for you will quite soon go posting in that way again.
I can very well understand why you seem to glorify hoodloom’ish use of a machete. You seem to be overly cocky in your belief as being an expert fencer just because you done some HEMA battlefield stuff, you could as well be a football-hooligan…… but a fencer you are most certainly not.

Zheng manqing bested a champion Olympic fencer, Yang Chengfu gentlemanly defeated General Li in a fencing contest, and you shamelessly claim they’re just dancing on treetops…. If you want to be a fencer but don’t want to associate yourself with the taiji-jian then at least go to a proper fencing school and learn some manners

[Trick]

I don’t mention peoples names without their permission
The story is true
The FS is a short jian tell me how it is not

Well a jian blade has three distinct sections, for one. The FS has only one.

The gaurd on a jian has a much better chance of catching someone else's blade.



If you don't understand the implications of, at the very least, THOSE obvious differences, are you qualified to speak at all on the topic? Or are you just trying to shoehorn something in to fit for the sheer purpose of trying to prove me wrong?

Are you really trying to compare wudang sword FENCING with the use of a combat operative's knife?

I mean, DAMN, wayne, I will grant that once upon a time there were Jian's on the battlefield, but it is a pretty damn far stretch to draw a line from the FS to a battle Jian, just... not even the same class of weapons.. ridiculous.

I'll bet you tell the missus that's 25 centimeters huh?

It just goes to show how narrow and shallow your actual knowledge is and how great the intellectually dishonest lengths you'll go to in service of your ego trip.

Can we please just talk about the history and the facts, though, instead of obsession what others may or may not know? It's far more interesting.

the Fairbairn knife was developed while in mind of the violent encounters with the boxers of Shanghai and his own training in Japanese and Chinese martial arts…..I think that history goes ?

[Trick]

I don’t mention peoples names without their permission
The story is true
The FS is a short jian tell me how it is not

Well a jian blade has three distinct sections, for one. The FS has only one.

The gaurd on a jian has a much better chance of catching someone else's blade.



If you don't understand the implications of, at the very least, THOSE obvious differences, are you qualified to speak at all on the topic? Or are you just trying to shoehorn something in to fit for the sheer purpose of trying to prove me wrong?

Are you really trying to compare wudang sword FENCING with the use of a combat operative's knife?

I mean, DAMN, wayne, I will grant that once upon a time there were Jian's on the battlefield, but it is a pretty damn far stretch to draw a line from the FS to a battle Jian, just... not even the same class of weapons.. ridiculous.

I'll bet you tell the missus that's 25 centimeters huh?

It just goes to show how narrow and shallow your actual knowledge is and how great the intellectually dishonest lengths you'll go to in service of your ego trip.

Can we please just talk about the history and the facts, though, instead of obsession what others may or may not know? It's far more interesting.

the Fairbairn knife was developed while in mind of the violent encounters with the boxers of Shanghai and his own training in Japanese and Chinese martial arts…..I think that’s how that history goes ?

[johnwang]

The gaurd on a jian has a much better chance of catching someone else's blade.

This is wrong design of the sword guard. Your opponent can take advantage on this guard, slide his sword all the way down to your sword guard, press and control your sword guard, and then stab you.

This is the correct design of sword guard. Your opponent's sword won't be able to take advantage on your sword guard.

[Trick]

I'll let Bob talk for me on this...
No I mean Yeun-ming...

Wait no, it's actually Robert Young, and they all agree with me.
From https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?p=409176&sid=a82dcd34848abc22900e450e9362b754#p409176

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=297594

Old discussion from the forum - Started out as a discussion of Li Jing-lin's Yang style taiji but the sword discussion followed.

Below is a post by Yuen-ming who always adds something good to the "mix":



Robert Young wrote:
At the end of this book, it lists dozens of people that learned from Li. Lots of them were students from NanJing CMA Institute, including my GM Han. The clips posted earlier are not Yang's Tai Chi Jian actually, because the moves do not match the Yang's Tai Chi Jian scripts. You can get the script from Chen Wei-Ming's book about Yang's Tai Chi. or, here http://www.embracethemoon.com/perspecti ... sword.htm/. People can google it on the internet.

Modern day Yang style sword, and by that I mean the form transmitted below Yang Chengfu, is in fact a derivation of Wudang Jian. The form was devised by Chen Weiming's group who had tight contact with General Li.
The early Taiji sword form(s) is quite different, and was passed down by a few of Banhou and Jianhou's disciples.

While it is true that most styles have sword or other weapons practice, Taijiquan weapons (traditionally) have a very specific approach and flavor so they are very different from most of the other styles. This is easy to be seen in the movement but especially in paired practice.

Wudang sword originally, as passed down by Song Weiyi, had no fixed pattern and forms were devised by some of his disciples (Li Jinglin invented some, Guo Chifeng others etc) based on their experience.
The transmission originally was very comprehensive and included neigong and various basic exercises done without the sword, including Daoist hand patterns modeled after the stars. Then single pattern sword exercises down to free-form.
LI Jinglin and some other disciples found it hard to pass the transmission in this traditional way so they modified the curriculum to match the new situation (having many students etc).

The influence of Li Jinglin's sword was enormous in Chinese martial arts, as he was an eclectic and famous pratictioner, so a lot of sword practice after his time was in a way or another influenced by him.

Actual Wudang sword nowadays is basically gone. In Taijiquan vein what remains are a few forms, nice to watch but totally useless in combat and in general to develop any skill.

YM

Once again, though, I reiterate.... Show me.

Yang chengfu learned from his father and from Banhou line. By this he of course learned true sword skill.
General Li learned from YCF’s father, how much one can argue about, but whatever he learned he merged with the Wudang stuff he also studied.
If Yang chengfu somewhat copied Li’s sword form one can also argue about, it could very well be the other way around, anyway it was a training method suited for the new civilized era.
The solely external appearance of taiji forms is not the relevant, as we know it’s what laid within that matter, something that YCF seemingly showed when he quickly defeated Li in that fencing bout.

[Trick]

The gaurd on a jian has a much better chance of catching someone else's blade.

This is wrong design of the sword guard. Your opponent can take advantage on this guard, slide his sword all the way down to your sword guard, press and control your sword guard, and then stab you.

This is the correct design of sword guard. Your opponent's sword won't be able to take advantage on your sword guard.

When training with partners, no sword guard on the (practice)sword is the best. One should learn/get used to know how to guard without a guard

[wayne hansen]

The sword guard facing either way has its advantages and disadvantages
TheFS is not a jian and all double edged swords are not the same
Wu and Yang weapons are quite different
I still maintain knowing the jian allows you to use the any dagger in an effective manner
The main problem with a blade is are you willing to breach the flesh
I had two students I was teaching Tulisan knife fighting one a surgeon the other a chef
One liked how I showed him how to attack the organs
The other liked how I severed the tendons
As I stated I have shown those who are knife fighters they had no problems with my teaching
Those of you who have Edgar Sulite’s books look in the photos you will see me teaching him exercises and Tony and Toffer
looking on
I think it is his balisong book
I don’t have it or I would post it here

[Trick]

I’m neither surgeon or butcher but still I have 5 cleavers in the kitchen, but those are my wife’s business But now and then I borrow the biggest of them to use when I “dance” through my Xingyidao form because I’ve got no possession of a CMA’s Dao,anyway with a such I would still want to practice with it indoors and indoors in my case my house, it would be too big a thing to “whirling” around with, so the cleaver is perfect for the setting, although some improvising has to be done so to not knock over a vase or other pretty things….There’s no room for any Ito aggressive machete craze, controlled precision have to be in play.

[origami_itto]

The sword guard facing either way has its advantages and disadvantages
TheFS is not a jian and all double edged swords are not the same
Wu and Yang weapons are quite different
I still maintain knowing the jian allows you to use the any dagger in an effective manner
The main problem with a blade is are you willing to breach the flesh
I had two students I was teaching Tulisan knife fighting one a surgeon the other a chef
One liked how I showed him how to attack the organs
The other liked how I severed the tendons
As I stated I have shown those who are knife fighters they had no problems with my teaching
Those of you who have Edgar Sulite’s books look in the photos you will see me teaching him exercises and Tony and Toffer
looking on
I think it is his balisong book
I don’t have it or I would post it here

Knowing how to handle a jian will help a little with a knife, sure, but knowing how to handle a knife is better. They both offer their own advantages, disadvantages, and considerations.

My #1 rule for a knife fight is that they are informed of the presence of the knife by the wound it leaves, the corollary being assume everyone has one.

Number 2 rule is not to get attached to preference for a weapon.

Let's be clear. Wudang jian as studied and practiced in the Taijiquan world (learning the wudang form) is not sufficient preparation for sword or knife fighting.

In and out itself it does very little useful to prepare a student for the realities of edged weapons fighting.

Do you disagree? You think learning that one little form is gonna make you Inigo Montoya? If so please state it clearly.

The specific nature of the jian make it less practical today. I'm training to respond better to my life, not to escape it in exotic Oriental fantasy.

To that end, the sword is for yi and waist training. Challenging upper body strength.

For actual fighting possibility, I like a kerambit and dao... and stick. Much more directly applicable to situations and weapons and improvised weapons I'm likely to find myself in and that my students are going to find themselves in. A small knife, a machete, a flashlight, a cane, a stick.

The dao form has a lot more practical information in it for students to learn how to access the power they are developing in those situations.

[Steve James]

Yes, I was taught the way to identify a "scholar's" jian from a warrior's was by the shape of the guard. It's also true that in certain periods, the guard was very small.


Btw, iinm, the "Yang family" style jian has a slightly different shape. It's something like this dao.


There are also short "jians" but it's like saying there are long "knives." It can come down to taste rather than terminology. At some point, the context will determine which length is best for the situation. I'd personally prefer a FB to a jian in a phone booth. Otoh, the whole reason people put knives on the end of sticks was to have a reach advantage. The spear has always been called the king of the battlefield for a reason. I'd take a stout staff over a jian, too.

That's why I don't see the jian as a cq weapon. Um, there are X number of jian movements (some schools teach 13). Most of the movements in the form are large but have subtle targets that disable an opponent rather than directly offing them. In a dao form, there are fewer movements, but all of them are deadly. Imo, that's the main reason the dao is taught first.

[Bhassler]

I don’t mention peoples names without their permission
The story is true

So someone is travelling the world teaching, but only in secret? If they're putting their stuff out there, you can say their name.
It makes no sense to make an appeal to authority and then refuse to identify who that authority is. You're basically saying "I know a guy who knows a guy, and therefore I'm right."
The claim to be the #1 knife fighter is, frankly, stupid. I've never met or heard of anyone even remotely competent who would claim such a thing. If anything, referencing a legendary figure making outrageous claims who may or may not exist as proof of your argument works against you rather than for you.

[Doc Stier]

Getting back to why the death of Master Yang Cheng-Fu is still enveloped in mystery, it's likely that if the same events occurred today, a modern postmortem autopsy, combined with modern lab work analysis, would quickly identify the actual, real cause of Yang's death. There would simply be no logical consideration of rumors or hypothesis, as the results would clearly speak for themselves, unless a serious effort was made to deliberately conceal the findings.

[Steve James]

Well, there's the answer Doc. It's mysterious because it's a mystery. The real question is why it matters.