the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

BruceP wrote:Welcome to the low-level world of training people whose occupations present the possibility of being physically assaulted on a daily basis, and/or people who want to test the basic fighting method(s) in something a little more intense than push hands, against a wider range of tactical problems and challenges.

In order for something - anything - to be 'practical', it has to be tested. That's the only way it can be made repeatable for an individual, and from individual to individual.

Basic fighting method...

Some people try to bring Taiji into the abstract world. Some people try to bring Taiji into the real combat world. I always like to ask people, "If you need to use some Taiji skill to finish a fight, which Taiji skill do you prefer to have?" No matter how I may choose, to push my opponent away will not be my choice.

johnwang wrote:Some people try to bring Taiji into the abstract world. Some people try to bring Taiji into the real combat world. I always like to ask people, "If you need to use some Taiji skill to finish a fight, which Taiji skill do you prefer to have?" No matter how I may choose, to push my opponent away will not be my choice.

When I first learned, the emphasis was that tcc is a martial art. We competed against martial artists from other martial arts. There was no such thing as push hands tournaments or competitions solely for tcc. They started much later.

John, all you have to do is enter one of your sj students into a phs tournament that allows using legs. Or start one

Steve James wrote:When I first learned, the emphasis was that tcc is a martial art. We competed against martial artists from other martial arts.

Taiji has most of the basic tools. But people prefer to talk about "push" instead.

1. jab - step out, deflect, vital punch.
2. cross - brush knee twist step.
3. hook - striking tiger.
4. uppercut - snake extend tone.
5. hammer fist - Turn around hammer.
6. front toes kick - separate leg.
7. front heel kick - turn around heel kick.
8. outside crescent kick - lotus kick.
9. ...

wayne hansen wrote:Yes the Sydney branch under Dean Rainer
I should point out Dean was originally under Hung I Hsiang
Later he bought Hung and his son to Australia to renew the relationship
My student Geoff Ewin also spent a few years with master HSU before he came back to train with me

I’ve met a lot of TST guys. Vince Black was a friend of my teacher’s and Vince sent a lot of students to study Yin Style Bagua. Mike Bingo was a local. He had crazy power but it was Ming Jing. YSB starts in the An Jing stage. This is ingrained into the body at a foundational level- instead of standing in Santishi with the body relaxed, we only stand for 5 minutes, while trying to keep all our muscles extended and tense, then take a break to give our muscles a chance to recover, then repeat, always in 5 minute intervals. This builds up Yi/ Intent, but keeps it hidden within the confines of our skin. Where in Xyq the relaxing and projecting outward lets your Yi out. It’s Obvious. But it’s strategical as it is how XYQ can get “Opponents should fall like blades of grass before you.”
Yin style Bagua’s strategy is to counter that. If two XYQ guys fight, the one who practiced more typically wins. So how can we beat Xyq, we do the opposite of what they do.

I was in Taiwan in 75 neither Vince or Mike were still there then
My student Geoff knew them both as did my teacher
TST is a great system I still have students who do the basic 8 step forms all 4 of them
Wu Hsing and some animals

On the topic of actual fencing and jians, I don't see why the jian wouldn't work and would automatically be crappier than a dao. In fact, it would slot in very nicely into my Bolognese fencing framework, but of course it would look a little bit different in application to what the usual Chinese sword forms look like. It's a nice stabby weapon though and the only thing I'd really want in an actual fight is more of a handguard (which the western counterparts tend to provide), but just carrying that around as a dress-sword would be annoying if it has a very prominent handguard so that's probably part of the reason why it doesn't. I would also want it on the longer side, but that is a rather obvious statement (to anyone who actually fences).

That said, I do think there is merit to the idea that the sword forms are in Taiji to train Taiji skills, rather than actually give you a working mode of application. It seems to me that they were late additions, ie. in a time when sword fighting was already passé, but I'm not 100% on that.

Looking at two man Jian forms and such performed is usually quite embarassing in all honesty. You can pretty much immediately see that the people have no idea of application - usually just by looking at the distance they stand apart, ie. they stand way too close to each other. Sword fighting distance is not punching/kicking distance.

johnwang wrote:Taiji master Li Jing-Lin did not allow YCF to teach in public. After YCF left his students, YCF died a year later (not happy?).

One day, Li Jing-Lin and my teacher Chang Dong-Sheng walked in the park that YCF was teaching. Li told Chang, "Look at that YCF is cheating on his students again." Li and YCF didn't get along.

Li Jinglin is an interesting figure in an interesting period! It seems to me that he was one of the key people who formed what our idea of Wudang martial arts today is and that the concept as such did not really exist before him. Looking at what became of Wudang martial arts, I ahhhh lets say just that they aren't very martial focused so I wonder when that happened.. ie. whether Li Jinglin was actually much of a fighter in truth or more of a lore collector, and what was his intention with the system he seems to have influenced or whether the system was watered down later.

Also, I wonder what does it mean exactly that Li Jinglin wouldn't want YCF to be teaching. That phrasing is interesting and seems to point towards the shared context of the Guoshu Insititute where they both taught.

Wahkeen wrote:On the topic of actual fencing and jians, I don't see why the jian wouldn't work and would automatically be crappier than a dao. In fact, it would slot in very nicely into my Bolognese fencing framework, but of course it would look a little bit different in application to what the usual Chinese sword forms look like. It's a nice stabby weapon though and the only thing I'd really want in an actual fight is more of a handguard (which the western counterparts tend to provide), but just carrying that around as a dress-sword would be annoying if it has a very prominent handguard so that's probably part of the reason why it doesn't. I would also want it on the longer side, but that is a rather obvious statement (to anyone who actually fences).

That said, I do think there is merit to the idea that the sword forms are in Taiji to train Taiji skills, rather than actually give you a working mode of application. It seems to me that they were late additions, ie. in a time when sword fighting was already passé, but I'm not 100% on that.

Looking at two man Jian forms and such performed is usually quite embarassing in all honesty. You can pretty much immediately see that the people have no idea of application - usually just by looking at the distance they stand apart, ie. they stand way too close to each other. Sword fighting distance is not punching/kicking distance.

johnwang wrote:Taiji master Li Jing-Lin did not allow YCF to teach in public. After YCF left his students, YCF died a year later (not happy?).

One day, Li Jing-Lin and my teacher Chang Dong-Sheng walked in the park that YCF was teaching. Li told Chang, "Look at that YCF is cheating on his students again." Li and YCF didn't get along.

Please check out the thread on jian v knife in the video section.

. Also, I wonder what does it mean exactly that Li Jinglin wouldn't want YCF to be teaching. That phrasing is interesting and seems to point towards the shared context of the Guoshu Insititute where they both taught.

Li Jinglin was the founder of the Guoshu Institute that invited YCF to teach there, maybe in this sense Li Jinglin was the “boss”, and YCF coming there getting the upper hand in that fencing match against the Swordwizard might have something to do with that “don’t want him to teach”, even when they both later had relocated to Shanghai General Li might still held that stance…..But what could he do ?

Li Jinglin didn't have a martial art named after him, either. Iirc, Li didn't run the GI for political reasons, or to not show favoritism. He attracted YCF and WCC, but YCF was the highest paid instructor at the GI. Maybe there needed to be a story to explain that. Anyway, even if true, I don't think that means that YCF was a great swordsman or could beat Li.

For any story of YCF's prowess, there are reports saying he was humbled by someone. YCF wasn't the "Invincible" member of the clan.

Steve James wrote:Li Jinglin didn't have a martial art named after him, either. Iirc, Li didn't run the GI for political reasons, or to not show favoritism. He attracted YCF and WCC, but YCF was the highest paid instructor at the GI. Maybe there needed to be a story to explain that. Anyway, even if true, I don't think that means that YCF was a great swordsman or could beat Li.

For any story of YCF's prowess, there are reports saying he was humbled by someone. YCF wasn't the "Invincible" member of the clan.

Just a note that at that period of time, what was called taijiquan was novel and anyone who played it and with some "face affiliation" (be it status, property, etc),
that person was the equivalent of a 'star'. Many of the martial organization wanted to propagate their system(s) so by making them for public consumption,
more people would be aware of the cultural tradition of x martial system along with the many 'qigong' neigong/yangsheng health fitness routines.

Many teachers and students of them, hid elements of health, skill, or lack therof, like the stars of today, to keep their notoriety under wraps and as
a result, there existed a milieu corruption, that has damaged the knowledge base of CMA. Li JInglin, as warlord and army general had commanded
enough people to sway them one way or another so LI enhanced the position of Yang Chengfu, and Yang Chengfu, (by his presence) enhanced Li's position also!

They should have got onto chat GPT and started a podcast

yeniseri wrote:Just a note that at that period of time, what was called taijiquan was novel and anyone who played it and with some "face affiliation" (be it status, property, etc),
that person was the equivalent of a 'star'. Many of the martial organization wanted to propagate their system(s) so by making them for public consumption,
more people would be aware of the cultural tradition of x martial system along with the many 'qigong' neigong/yangsheng health fitness routines.

Many teachers and students of them, hid elements of health, skill, or lack therof, like the stars of today, to keep their notoriety under wraps and as
a result, there existed a milieu corruption, that has damaged the knowledge base of CMA. Li JInglin, as warlord and army general had commanded
enough people to sway them one way or another so LI enhanced the position of Yang Chengfu, and Yang Chengfu, (by his presence) enhanced Li's position also!

Agreed. Sometimes, it's not about who you know or what you know, but rather who knows you and what they know about you. It's good to have friends in both high and low places in society.

wayne hansen wrote:They should have got onto chat GPT and started a podcast

Yang Chengfu used DYJ at first…….but that one proved inaccurate…….so he moved on to use the refined ZMQ instead