The Myth of the Frail Old Man

[C.J.Wang]

In IMA, we've all heard of stories where old masters who are weak and frail, but can still defeat opponents much younger and stronger in combat using his soft skills that supposedly do not rely on muscle.

How much does the above statement hold true to you? Myth or Reality?

If it's true, have you actually witnessed it happening?

[cdobe]

In IMA, we've all heard of stories where old masters who are weak and frail, but can still defeat opponents much younger and stronger in combat using his soft skills that supposedly do not rely on muscle.

How much does the above statement hold true to you? Myth or Reality?

If it's true, have you actually witnessed it happening?

http://www.56.com/u87/v_MzI5NjEwOTI.html
Starts after the form demonstrations, so be patient...

[C.J.Wang]

PH demos like this where the old master off-balances coorperative students around don't really mean much to me. I've seen way too many of them. It only shows that the master is good at the PH game, which is a far cry from free-fighting.

The clip description says that the master used to be Wu Gung-Yi's teaching assistant in Hong Kong. Since we've all seen Wu Gung-Yi's performance in the ring , I am not sure how much we can expect from his students.

[cdobe]

PH demos like this where the old master off-balances coorperative students around don't really mean much to me. I've seen way too many of them. It only shows that the master is good at the PH game, which is a far cry from free-fighting.

The video was meant as a little hint at how such a myth comes into being. The old man in the clip definately has some great skills and I disagree that the students are cooperating (in the sense that they are helping him to make it happen). You're absolutely right though that this isn't combat. However, people who experience first hand the skills of such a master tend to extrapolate.

The clip description says that the master used to be Wu Gung-Yi's teaching assistant in Hong Kong. Since we've all seen Wu Gung-Yi's performance in the ring , I am not sure how much we can expect from his students.

The same old discussion. Taijiquan is a grappling oriented MA and grappling wasn't allowed in this 1954 match in Macao. Wu was 53 years old and was accepting to fight a public bare knuckle match against a 20 years younger Martial Artist. And the ruleset was clearly not in his favour. How many TJQ masters do you know who would do this ? I wonder how all the critics and their teachers would look like in such an event. I feel that the man deserves some respect, at least for putting his money where his mouth is.

CD

[strawdog]

It's no myth.

[Dmitri]

If it's true, have you actually witnessed it happening?

Is this old enough for ya?

[jafc]

depends on what you mean by old & frail.
If mid-fifties or early sixties qualifies as old (it does not in my book), then I think that a deficit in strength & speed could easily be made up for by tactic & strategy. Also, after many years of fighting, the old guy can keep his head a bit better & so could possibly bring more skill to bear.
If we're talking much older than that, I think the old man is going down. By the time most people are 70's, they cant expect to overwhelm a athletic 29 year old who is actually trying to hurt them. I agree that frequently these demos are mostly cooperative or, at least, the student not wanting to hurt their teacher.
I think we have all seen skill beat muscle in similarly aged opponents (happens all the time in MMA) but all it takes is the smaller, skilled guy misreading & letting one thru & ooops its all down hill.
I have not seen a true free fight between an old master & younger opponent
JC

[bruce]

dmitri that is on of my all time favorite martial arts videos. so much is being shown there.

[jafc]

since the last two posts have raised the issue, I think there is a difference between weapons fighting & empty hand
JC

[Dmitri]

I agree; weapons don't require nearly as much strength.

Bottom line -- of course there's a point past which any master will lose speed, sensitivity, strength, etc.

I guess I'm not sure what the question asked in this thread really is.

It's all relative.

[strawdog]

Helio Gracie is 92 something...



Art Rhemrev is 78 ...



Don Angier is 75 ...



Leo Gaje is 70 ...

[C.J.Wang]

I am raising the question because based on my experience so far, I haven't seen any old fighting masters (age 65+) without an excellent level of physical fitness for their age. Yet there are people who say that their masters find lifting a bowling ball and carrying a bag of grocery difficult, but can still kick ass.

My White Crane teacher is 90 years old, but looks 20 years younger than his actual age. When he does Babulien (our version of Sanchin,) his ab becomes so hard that I feel like I am touching a piece of rock when I put my hand on it. He can still put his arm out and allow me to push as hard as I can sideway without budging an inch.

When my Bagua grandteacher was in his 80s, he could still climb trees and jump over fences with ease. His fingers were so strong that he could stick the middle and index finger out in a V shape and challenge people to squeeze them together.

My own Bagua teacher, who's 57 this year, can still run faster, jump higher, bend lower, and lift heavier objects than I can. (I am not even half his age.) One time we were at a friend's office helping out with some heavy boxes, there was one so heavy that I couldn't even get it off the ground. He came over, picked it up like it was nothing, and walked all the way to the car parked outside without breaking any sweat.

[Dmitri]

Yet there are people who say that their masters find lifting a bowling ball and carrying a bag of grocery difficult, but can still kick ass.

Aha, now I see what you mean...

Yeah, I agree (FWIW) that they all have "an excellent level of physical fitness for their age".

But there's also a high level of refinement that enables them to do things without employing as much of that physical fitness as younger (less skilled) people.

[Sajite]

Myth

the body is the tool

[Walter Joyce]

I feel as if you have set up a straw dog by including the term "frail".

I feel that at an advanced age if one has found a method to maintain health and vitality and martial skill as well that they have achieved something great, something we all should strive for.