Standing Meditation

[Appledog]

Who invented standing meditation, i.e. the practice of holding postures for benefit?

We may speculate health versions of this appeared before martial versions or vice versa. I suspect it may have something to do with (zen) meditation which was extended to sitting and then standing. Or, daoyin postures which were held, and some people started holding them for longer periods of time, and then they made discoveries through this which were collected over generations.

In any case, when did this actually start? Does anyone have any information on the earliest arts standing appeared in?

[windwalker]

Who invented standing meditation, i.e. the practice of holding postures for benefit?

We may speculate health versions of this appeared before martial versions or vice versa. I suspect it may have something to do with (zen) meditation which was extended to sitting and then standing. Or, daoyin postures which were held, and some people started holding them for longer periods of time, and then they made discoveries through this which were collected over generations.

In any case, when did this actually start? Does anyone have any information on the earliest arts standing appeared in?

some might find it useful

Interesting enough my teacher discourage standing, feeling the practice of the form was a type of moving standing...

[wayne hansen]

While practicing TST I did a lot of standing
But as stated above the same can be done while moving
I think Huangs 5 (old style)
Tien Gan
24 noi gung
Yang noi gung
And several other sets give more benifit

[Bhassler]

I'm not convinced that holding postures is the same thing as standing meditation. My theory is that they are not and never were the same, but once taiji went all floppy and lost the bitter jibengong, people had to find a reason for why they were standing there, and "meditation" was what they came up with. As for why that and some other bitter practices evolved the way they did, it could have been due to environment. That is to say, training outside in the dirt year round, no adjustable barbells, or clean, padded gyms, or punching bags, or abundant training partners, etc., etc..

All of that said, I tend to agree that just standing on it's own accomplishes little that is not done better in other ways. Moving forms/exercises can accomplish the same physical benefits (usually better), and taking advantage of modern, comfortable training spaces gives opportunity for more effective practices on the yin/mental/spiritual side of things, as well.

[Bao]

Hua To’s 5 animals exercise is approx 2000 years old. When Buddhism came to China, Buddhist and Daoist thought and practice melted together. So I am sure standing exercises have been used as meditation in China since at least about 1800 years back.

[Bao]

but once taiji went all floppy and lost the bitter jibengong, people had to find a reason for why they were standing there, and "meditation" was what they came up with.

A very Western way of thinking… That something must be either this or that. But jibengong and meditation are not mutually exclusive. In Chinese culture things are often complex and can be, or express, different things at the same time. Just like a Chinese character can be a noun, verb, adjectives etc depending on how it’s used.

I am sure standing meditation has been a part of Chinese martial arts as long as standing practice has been a part of Chinese martial arts. Probably since the very start of tcma. Back then everyone was religious and did various religious practices.

[Bhassler]

but once taiji went all floppy and lost the bitter jibengong, people had to find a reason for why they were standing there, and "meditation" was what they came up with.

A very Western way of thinking… That something must be either this or that. But jibengong and meditation are not mutually exclusive. In Chinese culture things are often complex and can be, or express, different things at the same time. Just like a Chinese character can be a noun, verb, adjectives etc depending on how it’s used.

I am sure standing meditation has been a part of Chinese martial arts as long as standing practice has been a part of Chinese martial arts. Probably since the very start of tcma.

Could be-- it's just a theory based on what I've seen of contemporary practice. There's also some debate about what genuinely constitutes "meditation." Depending on some definitions, genuine jibengong and meditation might be physiologically incompatible, in that doing one right has physical affects that preclude doing the other. For other definitions, it's all standing/moving meditation. Whatever floats your boat, I guess...

Back then everyone was religious and did various religious practices.

That's a very monolithic way of thinking. It's unlikely that "everyone" was any more homogenous 2000 years ago than they are today.

[johnwang]

Who invented standing meditation, i.e. the practice of holding postures for benefit?

The 13 postures (十三太保) was trained during the ancient time. Not sure the year.

1. 旱地拔葱 (Han Di Ba Cong) Pull onion off a dry ground
2. 李奎磨斧 (Li Kui Mo Fu) Li Kui sharps the axe
3. 仙人照鏡 (Xian Ren Zhao Jing) Angle look at mirror
4. 钝链割谷 (Dun Lian Ge Gu) Dull sickle cut rice
5. 舍身探海 (She Shen Tan Hai) Sacristy body and dive into ocean
6. 魁 星点斗 (Kui Xing Dian Dou) Kui Xing points at star
7. 烏龍戏水 (Wu Long Xi Shui) Black dragon plays with water
8. 羅漢观天 (Luo Han Guan Tian) Lou Han looks at sky
9. 燕子超水 (Yan Zi Chao Shui) Swallow skips water
10. 合卧 (He Wo) Combine stance
11. 古樹盤根 (Gu Shu Pan Gen) Old tree twist the root
12. 托天式 (Tuo Tian Shi) Lift the sky
13. 三平 (San Ping) Three plains

[Bao]

Could be-- it's just a theory based on what I've seen of contemporary practice. There's also some debate about what genuinely constitutes "meditation." Depending on some definitions, genuine jibengong and meditation might be physiologically incompatible,

What western people call meditation is pointless in the discussion. How meditation was perceived and practiced historically in China and in martial arts is what has meaning in the debate.

What I know is that Yang Cheng Fu's generation of Tai Chi teachers, both him and teachers from other Tai Chi schools practiced standing meditation (standing exercises practiced as meditation), which means that it's highly likely that standing as meditation is at least older than Yang Cheng Fu's generation, long before "taiji went all floppy", maybe something practiced at least as early as by Yang Lu Chan's students.

Anyway, from all available accounts, it's certainly not a modern hippie thing.

Back then everyone was religious and did various religious practices.

That's a very monolithic way of thinking. It's unlikely that "everyone" was any more homogenous 2000 years ago than they are today.

It's "everyone in China" and it's my own conclusion from reading history. Even the most intellectual thinkers were religious and superstition. There's a written account that Zhu Xi (he who resurrected Confucianism as a state philosophy) prayed before altars in Daoist, Buddhist and Confucian temples in one and the same day. Through the centuries, religion had an influence on virtually everyone's daily life, their thoughts and actions.

[Appledog]

Who invented standing meditation, i.e. the practice of holding postures for benefit?

The 13 postures (十三太保) was trained during the ancient time. Not sure the year.

But what does Tai Bao even mean, and why 13? I looked into these 13 tai bao, and although it is usually very similar some lists contain 1 or 2 different exercises. My school for example has a completely different set of exercises with (of course) very different names. But it is 13 tai bao. Now that is confusing.

[origami_itto]

Who invented standing meditation, i.e. the practice of holding postures for benefit?

The 13 postures (十三太保) was trained during the ancient time. Not sure the year.

But what does Tai Bao even mean, and why 13? I looked into these 13 tai bao, and although it is usually very similar some lists contain 1 or 2 different exercises. My school for example has a completely different set of exercises with (of course) very different names. But it is 13 tai bao. Now that is confusing.

Because 1 1 2 3 5 8 13

They built the system, intentionally or not, on phi.

[Appledog]

What I know is that Yang Cheng Fu's generation of Tai Chi teachers, both him and teachers from other Tai Chi schools practiced standing meditation (standing exercises practiced as meditation), which means that it's highly likely that standing as meditation is at least older than Yang Cheng Fu's generation, long before "taiji went all floppy", maybe something practiced at least as early as by Yang Lu Chan's students.

That is something I have been looking into for quite a while. I've never been able to find such information. In fact all accounts I have been able to verify state that Yang and his teachers did not practice standing. (ie. it was affirmatively denied, not an inference or a lack of mention). The flipside is that some well known teachers have insinuated that despite it not having been historically trained as a part of tai chi, it can serve as a fast track to some parts of the traditional training method.

[Bhassler]

Could be-- it's just a theory based on what I've seen of contemporary practice. There's also some debate about what genuinely constitutes "meditation." Depending on some definitions, genuine jibengong and meditation might be physiologically incompatible,

What western people call meditation is pointless in the discussion. How meditation was perceived and practiced historically in China and in martial arts is what has meaning in the debate.

What I know is that Yang Cheng Fu's generation of Tai Chi teachers, both him and teachers from other Tai Chi schools practiced standing meditation (standing exercises practiced as meditation), which means that it's highly likely that standing as meditation is at least older than Yang Cheng Fu's generation, long before "taiji went all floppy", maybe something practiced at least as early as by Yang Lu Chan's students.

Anyway, from all available accounts, it's certainly not a modern hippie thing.

Thanks for the comments. I'm not a Yang stylist, nor a historian, so it's good to get more context. It sounds like Appledog may have some issues with the claims about older generations including standing meditation, but that's all outside my baliwick, so I'll leave you to it. I'm still going to call most taiji folks a bunch of floppy hippies, though-- a man's gotta have hobbies.

Also, I'm not talking about a "western" view of meditation, I'm basing my statements on conversations with those who have practiced meditation seriously as part of various traditions such as zen and yoga. As you mentioned earlier, the same word can mean different things to different people depending on background and context. What I think of as serious meditation and serious jibengong are not compatible, but both of those things may mean something different to you. We don't have to agree, but it's probably good if everyone is clear for themselves what they mean by those terms.

Back then everyone was religious and did various religious practices.

That's a very monolithic way of thinking. It's unlikely that "everyone" was any more homogenous 2000 years ago than they are today.

It's "everyone in China" and it's my own conclusion from reading history. Even the most intellectual thinkers were religious and superstition. There's a written account that Zhu Xi (he who resurrected Confucianism as a state philosophy) prayed before altars in Daoist, Buddhist and Confucian temples in one and the same day. Through the centuries, religion had an influence on virtually everyone's daily life, their thoughts and actions.

General comments:
-Academic record and "ground truth" are frequently not the same.
-Participating in cultural norms does not necessarily imply religious or superstitious belief.
-Everyone is superstitious, it's wired into our brains, and is what allows us to function as humans. Belief in electrons is superstitious, as no one has ever actually seen one. Most people's belief in science is functionally religious. If you haven't done or at least read the original research, and can understand the technology and the math involved, you're taking it on the word of "enlightened" individuals that what they say is truth. Just because someone places their faith in Neil DeGrasse Tyson rather than the pope doesn't make it not faith.
-All of which is to say that it is likely that all the variations and complexity of belief systems that exist today, are probably no more varied than what existed through most of human history. It gets to be a pretty deep and twisted rabbit-hole of epistemology and cognition, which is way off the topic. It's worth at least knowing it exists, though, if people want to challenge their own biases and assumptions about what these arts meant in the past and how that relates to what they mean today.

[windwalker]

What I think of as serious meditation and serious jibengong are not compatible, but both of those things may mean something different to you. We don't have to agree, but it's probably good if everyone is clear for themselves what they mean by those terms.

Very much agree with this.

also not a yang stylist nor historian

a practitioner of "taiji"

Have had students who also attended a zen temple, and did practice many of the standing and walking meditation practices of the temple for awhile 10+ yrs in most cases.

One would think it might be the same or even help,,in some aspects maybe..in most not...
The same assumptions about "yoga" again from experience working with those who've practiced them for many yrs..Both different practices developing different aspects.

Others may find different

having said this there are clear example of some carryovers

The Tea Master

[everything]

"meditation can turn fools into sages, but unfortunately fools never meditate"

it seems clear meditation is ancient and "standing" of some sort, maybe even just for strength and balance is ancient. no recordings of any specific dates or figures. am not good at meditation or zhan zhuang so no idea on the overlap getting to a "limit".