Yang form of YCF ... what was YLC form

[GrahamB]

Because being able to do something is not the same set of skills required to be an historian about it. It’s not a hard concept to understand but seemingly beyond the reach of your average run soaked fister.

[origami_itto]

I mean Yang Lu Chan was illiterate, so it doesn't seem to make much difference how much book learning you have.
Doesn't mean learning is bad.

[wayne hansen]

A academia is easy to understand
Just because it gets written down that does not make it true
Look at the plethora of blogs around on the subject
Some people think those people must have deep knowledge and their guests of high repute
However we know it is not always true

[Kong Bao Long]

Yang form of YCF ... what was YLC form?

My hypothesis: the original YLC form might be found in Northern Red Fist. To me, from my perspective, all arts that can document their origin from YLC (Hao, Wu and Yang Chen Fu family style) look like a soft version of Red Fist with the Ba Men grafted on to it. Some martial historian state that YLC studied Red Fist. It would also explain why the Hao, Wu and YCF styles don't look much like any Chen style. Maybe Chen Changxing just taught YLC the Ba-Men ...

Instead of focusing on Tou Shou, could the secret be to treat the art like a Changquan and then grafting the Ba-Men onto the long fist approach ... ala long fist gong, short power fa.

just a thought.

[everything]

I think the secret is in the fighter and not the art. I mean sambo and judo are great, no doubt, but Fedor is Fedor.

but please elaborate a little on Red Fist. (just for fun).

[Urs Krebs]

Yang form of YCF ... what was YLC form?

My hypothesis: the original YLC form might be found in Northern Red Fist. To me, from my perspective, all arts that can document their origin from YLC (Hao, Wu and Yang Chen Fu family style) look like a soft version of Red Fist with the Ba Men grafted on to it. Some martial historian state that YLC studied Red Fist. It would also explain why the Hao, Wu and YCF styles don't look much like any Chen style. Maybe Chen Changxing just taught YLC the Ba-Men ...

Instead of focusing on Tou Shou, could the secret be to treat the art like a Changquan and then grafting the Ba-Men onto the long fist approach ... ala long fist gong, short power fa.

just a thought.

As Mr. Hansen said: "a plethora of blogs"

Here's mine, my opinion is not that far away from your Hongquan thoughts (in some points):
https://craneinthetigersshadow.wordpress.com/2021/05/24/hongquan-eine-neue-these-uber-den-ursprung-der-chinesischen-kampfkunste/

The structure of Yang, Wu/Hao, Wu and Sun is exactly the same as Chen.
https://wuguanblog.wordpress.com/2018/06/13/taijiquan-haben-die-funf-familienstile-nun-gleiche-wurzeln-oder-nicht/

If the one after Chen Style made major changes It might be logical that all that came after him is different to the original thing too.

On the other side: Taijiquan is the ocean of historical misrepresentation. We'll probably never know.

[everything]

Taijiquan is the ocean of historical misrepresentation.

lol what a good quote.

i mean if there were actually ONE other "great" like YLC supposedly was, we could say something along the lines of what Fedor and Royce did both came from judo. Ergo, judo is really something. But alas we cannot. Still, for me, taijiquan is not "just judo". It has something more special. But talking about judo vs. sambo vs. bjj misses the entire point altogether.

[twocircles13]

Yang form of YCF ... what was YLC form?

My hypothesis: the original YLC form might be found in Northern Red Fist. To me, from my perspective, all arts that can document their origin from YLC (Hao, Wu and Yang Chen Fu family style) look like a soft version of Red Fist with the Ba Men grafted on to it. Some martial historian state that YLC studied Red Fist. It would also explain why the Hao, Wu and YCF styles don't look much like any Chen style. Maybe Chen Changxing just taught YLC the Ba-Men ...

Instead of focusing on Tou Shou, could the secret be to treat the art like a Changquan and then grafting the Ba-Men onto the long fist approach ... ala long fist gong, short power fa.

just a thought.

As Mr. Hansen said: "a plethora of blogs"

Here's mine, my opinion is not that far away from your Hongquan thoughts (in some points):
https://craneinthetigersshadow.wordpress.com/2021/05/24/hongquan-eine-neue-these-uber-den-ursprung-der-chinesischen-kampfkunste/

The structure of Yang, Wu/Hao, Wu and Sun is exactly the same as Chen.
https://wuguanblog.wordpress.com/2018/06/13/taijiquan-haben-die-funf-familienstile-nun-gleiche-wurzeln-oder-nicht/

If the one after Chen Style made major changes It might be logical that all that came after him is different to the original thing too.

On the other side: Taijiquan is the ocean of historical misrepresentation. We'll probably never know.

Yes, and I recognize the merit in what you both have said. Even though I have learned some Yang style forms, I don’t usually comment on Yang style threads, but I thought I might have a small contribution as, sort of, an outsider.

One of the main problems with YLC’s story is that the modern narratives of the Chen Village during Yang Luchan’s time contain inaccuracies that muddy the picture of what was actually happening.

Chen Changxing is credited for being a great teacher and innovator. Although he surely used taijiquan in his business and was an expert, this part of his reputation is likely exaggerated. Chen Changxing spent his life as a caravan escort leader. He only taught taijiquan after he retired, and he only had a handful of students including YLC. However, if you are familiar in discipleship rules, Changxing may or may not have even taught “his” students. He could have been more like a sponsor, and others may have taught his students. This often happened at rudimentary levels, and their official "master" may have only taught them later in their training, if at all.

On the other hand, Chen Youben is recognized as the primary teacher in the Chen Village at this time. He had dozens of disciples, several of whom distinguished themselves as skilled warriors in battle during the Taiping Rebellion. This includes Chen Changxing’s own son, Chen Gengyun, who was taught by Youben, because Changxing was absent.

Youben was verifiably an innovator. He is credited for creating an accelerated teaching method to bring Gengyun’s skills up to speed, so he could join his father’s business. Youben is credited for modifying the curriculum credited to Chen Wangting, the old frame, and creating a new method of teaching, the new frame. When Yu Yuxiang came to Chen Changxing to learn, Changxing referred him to Chen Qingping, Youben's top student who was teaching in nearby Zhaobao.

Chen Ziming promised that he would write a book detailing the differences between old frame and new frame. If he made time to do it, it has been lost.

Martial arts associated with taijiquan
When considering what martial arts influenced the formation of taijiquan, I think it is important to look to see what the forms and family records have to say..

Researchers in China have sought to recover Chen Wangting’s original teaching method, at least, the names of the sets and, if possible, the movements of the sets themselves. I think it is important to remember that all the barehand training was to establish a foundation and give one advantage when using weaponry, which were included in the training system also.

I cited my sources and this post went from long to really long, so I’ll say, "Sources available upon request.”

To summarize, there is evidence the sources of taijiquan could include,
Hongquan (Red Fist)
Taizu Changquan (Song Emperor’s Longfist)
Pao Chui or other “hammering" martial art or both
Qinglong (Azure dragon) from the sea boxing
Tongbeiquan

These all have roots into the Song Dynasty, so they would have been hundreds of years old when adopted or adapted by Chen Wangting at the end of the Ming Dynasty (1644). These martial arts have certainly also evolved since that time. This list is not unlike lists of martial arts practiced in other villages and communities in the area.

What did YLC’s form(s) look like?
What stands out to me in all of the forms and martial arts that contributed to the evolution of taijiquan is the anomaly of the Thirteen Postures set. This, of course, is what the Chen Family called the set that we all know as the taijiquan set, or form, today. It is just weird in martial arts history. As @Urs Krebs posted out, across styles and across time, this set has had very little deep modification.

Comparing form names and sequences as @Urs Krebs referenced, in Chinese, there is very little drift in the names. Most differences in English are due to translation.The underlying structure of the set is virtually untouched, although as time has marched on a movement that originally included 9 actions may now be counted as 3 movements of 3 actions, for example.

By contrast, if we look at the Chen Second Set, the Pao Chui, current forms taught by different branches within the style not only differ in number of movements, but sequence, and names. Entire sections of the underlying structure have been modified. This is what one would normally expect to see in the evolution of forms and what is observed in other martial arts.

So, in partial answer to the question, "What did YLC’s form(s) look like?” I find it highly likely if YLC learned and taught only one form, in sequence, it was the Thirteen Postures Set.

For consistency, I have called this form the Thirteen Postures Set, shí sān shì (十三 势), this is only a fair quality translation in capturing the full meaning of the name. Thirteen is plain enough, if symbolic, in Chinese. The problem is the English translation of shì (势, trad 勢), though “posture(s)" is a common translation of shì (势) in martial arts, Its listed translations include, (1) power, force, influence; (2) potential, momentum, tendency, trend; (3) situation, state of affairs, condition, circumstances; (4) outward appearance of a natural object; (5) sign, gesture; (6) male genitals. Where shǒu shì (手势), is a hand gesture or sign, zī shì (姿势) is a posture or position and jià shi (架势) is (1) posture, stance; (2) manner; (3) attitude, position (on an issue). So, this is an acceptable translation of shì (势). However, the word, posture, in English is often denoted to be static. We can have dynamic posture or postures, which is what we see in taijiquan. In fact a couple of translators have translated as the Thirteen “Dynamics” to convey this notion, but it’s not my favorite.

Traditionally, the Chen Thirteen Postures Set is divided into thirteen sections, and the name has been translated as the thirteen “sections". These might also be thought of a thirteen situations or circumstances used with “postures” in a double entendre, play on words. Likewise, the thirteen “powers", or “forces", could also be a play on words. This is often how even early taijiquan authors interpreted shí sān shì (十三 势), and taught Peng, Lu, Ji, An, and so forth, as the essential thirteen postures, or powers, of taijiquan.

That said, my point is not to quibble over translations, meanings or interpretations. It is to point out that there was something “special" about this training worth preserving. My own experience says that this is not necessarily the set itself, though it is a great pedagogical tool. The principles, practices, and methods, of this set in combinations with basics and hands-on training are singular. Chen Fake called these the “rules”, guī ju (规矩), lit. the compass and square of taijiquan. What I have learned while training this set has modified my thinking and practice of everything that came before or since.

I think this is what happened to other martial arts incorporated into Chen training. They became expressions of the lessons learned from the Thirteen Postures training, so I think it likely Chen versions of 23 movement Red Fist and 108 Taizu Changquan were significantly modified.

Eventually, in light of the unrest and violence of the 19th century, the Chen family needed faster effective training methods, which gave birth to the two-path, two-set system in the mid-1800s that continues until today. The unrest of the century also explains why the Chen Family would teach family servants to fight, and later even in the neighboring villages and towns.

So, once again, what did YLC’s form(s) look like? Based on the evidence that his students’ students form all follow the Thirteen Postures Set pattern, we can hypothesize that was the structure of his form. Did it look like modern Yang style or modern Chen Style? Almost certainly neither as both of these show evidence of evolution in the 20th century. There are some videos of forms learned around the beginning of the 20th century that might give us some hints.

From my experience and observation of the Thirteen Postures set, it is less the form and more the training and lessons internalized while learning the form that build skills. I was fortunate enough to find a Chen style teacher with an impressive set of skills, but I have also met Yang stylists and Wu stylists who also had good skills sets. They had some skills in common and other skills that varied from the training I had received.

That sounds like a bit of an evasion of the question, but until we can set aside stylistic differences, drop the protectionist attitudes about style “secrets”, disperse competitiveness, and squelch criticism of methods we do not understand, so we can share openly, we will never be able to construct a complete set of taijiquan skills much less reverse engineer what Yang Luchan was practicing and teaching.

[everything]

@twocircles13, thanks a lot. I think that's the best reasoned hypothesis for what his "form" must have been that I've ever read so far.

in various writings, many also say peng, lu, ji, and an are the four main things. trying to understand the "outside" is the wrong question imo for all the reasons i already argued above. this is just sheer idle curiosity and speculation. if it comes down to messi or lebron can do basics, read the game, make shots, do it all better, or it comes down to peng, lu, ji, an, and YLC could simply do that better, well that makes way too much sense, doesn't it. but it's still interesting to ponder as a side question or academic question.