Ting and Dong and silent sounds

[everything]

Have no idea why he used the English term “identifying”.

There seems to have been over intellectualizing by somebody writing or editing somewhere in the original “text”.

Then more so with translations.

Then with pondering on meanings in translated phrases and choices of words.

Agree about the think less feel more point at the end of the day.

Think this is again why “keep it simple stupid” is best.

[windwalker]

@ twocircles,

While it might helpful for some and the history interesting.


The main issue is understanding what is meant by

“勁 (Jin) ­ Refined force.

Normally, any force gained by active training, e.g. even boxing may consider as Jin. However, internal Jin are trained differently and do not involve the active engaging of muscles.
In the highest form in internal arts, Jin is developed through the movement of Yi and Qi.”

means…


With out this, any attempt at explaining it through western science or any other way outside of this understanding is futile..It will lead to other types of understanding that do not provide any explanations of what some see and question

要虛心向前輩及取得了正確進展的同輩和晚輩請教，反复練習。切忌從拳論中片面摘出與自己 想法相近的只言片語，一意孤行地傻練，這樣做必出偏差，輕則功夫不能得到正確發展，重則 損傷身體。

You should humbly ask your seniors, peers and juniors who have made correct progress, and practice repeatedly.
Don't one-sidedly extract words and phrases that are similar to your own thoughts from boxing theory,
and practice foolishly on one's own way.

Doing so will inevitably lead to deviations.

It would be better for those questioning to post clips of their work showing something they feel is demonstrative of what they feel it is..

[twocircles13]

Have no idea why he used the English term “identifying”.

There seems to have been over intellectualizing by somebody writing or editing somewhere in the original “text”.

Then more so with translations.

Then with pondering on meanings in translated phrases and choices of words.

Agree about the think less feel more point at the end of the day.

Think this is again why “keep it simple stupid” is best.

Translators make decisions all the time that ideally they would footnote the reasons for those word choices, but doing so will often make a translation cumbersome to read. Most translators opt for readability. There are many translations that have misled and still mislead their readers, because of their word choices. That is why Mr. Brennan’s painstaking work to include the Chinese text is so valuable. Like all translations, his translations reflect his perspective and experience with the subject of the text, but if something catches you as odd, you can just look up the characters, phrases, or sentences in the Chinese text to see what the original author wrote,... for free.

[twocircles13]

@ twocircles,

While it might helpful for some and the history interesting.


The main issue is understanding what is meant by

“勁 (Jin) ­ Refined force.

Normally, any force gained by active training, e.g. even boxing may consider as Jin. However, internal Jin are trained differently and do not involve the active engaging of muscles.
In the highest form in internal arts, Jin is developed through the movement of Yi and Qi.”

Oh, I see what you are saying. Dong Jin means to understand jin. I focused my search on ting jin. Yang Banhou writes quite extensively about understanding jin, as in understand what jin is. I’m working through the related text. I’m not fully confident in the translation.

What is the source of this definition quote? That would be nice to have.

means…


With out this, any attempt at explaining it through western science or any other way outside of this understanding is futile..It will lead to other types of understanding that do not provide any explanations of what some see and question

要虛心向前輩及取得了正確進展的同輩和晚輩請教，反复練習。切忌從拳論中片面摘出與自己 想法相近的只言片語，一意孤行地傻練，這樣做必出偏差，輕則功夫不能得到正確發展，重則 損傷身體。

You should humbly ask your seniors, peers and juniors who have made correct progress, and practice repeatedly.
Don't one-sidedly extract words and phrases that are similar to your own thoughts from boxing theory,
and practice foolishly on one's own way.

Doing so will inevitably lead to deviations.

Thanks, yes, that’s why it’s good to look at as many sources from our “seniors” as possible to check our understanding against theirs and get a big picture of what was taught in the generations before us.

It would be better for those questioning to post clips of their work showing something they feel is demonstrative of what they feel it is..

Yes, that is a good idea. A picture paints a thousand words and video even more. It would be even better if we got together in-person, so we could experience other peoples’ questions and answers. Unfortunately, logistics often get in the way, and give birth to textual discussions of a kinesthetic art. Adding a video is helpful. @johnwang, for example, often does this, but I think requiring a video to ask a question might be overly restrictive to discussion. Even a video sometimes does not capture what is going on internally. I am not sure how I would make a video showing or asking a question about listening jin or understanding jin.

Do you have suggestions?

[Quigga]

If you can't understand your own Jin, you can't possibly understand another one's. The partner is a training tool to further understand yourself

[windwalker]

If you can't understand your own Jin, you can't possibly understand another one's. The partner is a training tool to further understand yourself

Exactly

Which can be demonstrated by videos of things that can only be done using it..
Which as is often the case are questioned by those either not having the understanding they claim
or feeling they do, attempt to denigrate what is shown by others or posted by others to denigrate..

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan

練習揉手要有正確的目的。揉手又名推手。揉手的目的是為了校正練習者對拳術理論不正確的 理解，發現並糾正學習拳架時的不正確的練法，以及不正確的揉手方法，避免出現偏差而走入 吱途。有些人對揉手沒有正確的理解，認為揉手只是為了一爭高下，因而在練習時，拳友之間 往往容易產生誤會和摩擦，甚至傷害身體。這種偏差是由於缺少教養或違反武德，而在揉手中 摻雜了非太極拳的拆手、散打，以及反關節擒拿等招術，使揉手形成了較力的緣故。

Practice kneading with the right purpose. Rubbing hands is also known as pushing hands. The purpose of rubbing hands is to correct practitioners' incorrect understanding of boxing theory, discover and correct incorrect training methods when learning boxing, and incorrect hand-rubbing methods, so as to avoid deviations and go into the path of seeking.

Some people do not have a correct understanding of hand rubbing, and think that rubbing hands is just for competition.

Therefore, during practice, misunderstandings and frictions between boxers are often easy to cause, and even harm the body. This deviation is due to the lack of education or violation of martial ethics, and non-Tai Chi techniques such as dismantling hands, Sanda, and anti-joint grappling are mixed in the kneading hands, which makes the kneading hands more powerful.

agree with the above

In many cases the "training" is often looked on as a pseudo type of sparring complete with its. own rule sets ect..no longer about developing something that ones own training
should provide.

twocircles13 wrote :Yes, that is a good idea. A picture paints a thousand words and video even more. It would be even better if we got together in-person, so we could experience other peoples’ questions and answers. Unfortunately, logistics often get in the way, and give birth to textual discussions of a kinesthetic art. Adding a video is helpful.

@johnwang, for example, often does this, but I think requiring a video to ask a question might be overly restrictive to discussion. Even a video sometimes does not capture what is going on internally. I am not sure how I would make a video showing or asking a question about listening jin or understanding jin.

a picture does paint a thousand words...we are in the 21st century cell phones all over....should be easy.
why would it be better to get together?

Used to go to push hands meet ups, in the SF Bay area. in almost all cases ended up helping to correct misconceptions by those there..who feeling what they did was correct but not correct for taiji nor something that would lead to actual usage...

After awhile stopped, most not really interested in taiji..Only interested in finding a way to prevent what was happening to them to not happen..

In China and Taiwan, its kind of the same only a little different in that they do recognize and understand the meaning of "勁 (Jin) "

They also tend to use the practice with others as a type of pseudo sparring again which leads to bad outcomes when meeting those who do not "push hands" but "hit face"
Or maybe worse some feeling that being successful, in it, publicly challenging other MA practitioners to public matches, doesn't end well for most

Many yrs ago I had visited Master Lin, A (Nian) Long and his group with some of my taiji students from the US some of them borne in Taiwan acting as translators.

I am not sure how I would make a video showing or asking a question about listening jin or understanding jin.

Make a video showing what you consider "sticking" to be
for questions make one showing when you can not "stick". asking why or how to stick...

Or just one showing some basic movement...either way it would provide a level to gage what is written by...

My point about the videos was that it's quite easy to criticize others with out showing any of ones own work....many write well but don't really say much...

a picture is worth a thousand words.

[twocircles13]

If you can't understand your own Jin, you can't possibly understand another one's. The partner is a training tool to further understand yourself

Exactly

FWIW, I also agree.

Which can be demonstrated by videos of things that can only be done using it..
Which as is often the case are questioned by those either not having the understanding they claim
or feeling they do, attempt to denigrate what is shown by others or posted by others to denigrate..

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan

練習揉手要有正確的目的。揉手又名推手。揉手的目的是為了校正練習者對拳術理論不正確的 理解，發現並糾正學習拳架時的不正確的練法，以及不正確的揉手方法，避免出現偏差而走入 吱途。有些人對揉手沒有正確的理解，認為揉手只是為了一爭高下，因而在練習時，拳友之間 往往容易產生誤會和摩擦，甚至傷害身體。這種偏差是由於缺少教養或違反武德，而在揉手中 摻雜了非太極拳的拆手、散打，以及反關節擒拿等招術，使揉手形成了較力的緣故。

Practice kneading with the right purpose. Rubbing hands is also known as pushing hands. The purpose of rubbing hands is to correct practitioners' incorrect understanding of boxing theory, discover and correct incorrect training methods when learning boxing, and incorrect hand-rubbing methods, so as to avoid deviations and go into the path of seeking.

Some people do not have a correct understanding of hand rubbing, and think that rubbing hands is just for competition.

Therefore, during practice, misunderstandings and frictions between boxers are often easy to cause, and even harm the body. This deviation is due to the lack of education or violation of martial ethics, and non-Tai Chi techniques such as dismantling hands, Sanda, and anti-joint grappling are mixed in the kneading hands, which makes the kneading hands more powerful.

agree with the above

Again, FWIW, this is how I have always used push hands when I teach and in my own practice.

In many cases the "training" is often looked on as a pseudo type of sparring complete with its. own rule sets ect..no longer about developing something that ones own training
should provide.

Yes, I have had teachers who have allowed this. Discussing it with them, each said something similar. It was not the best way to teach taijiquan but many students who came need to build their confidence or to prove something to themselves, or to get the competition out of their systems. When they realize there is nothing to prove, they can start learning.

I have also had teachers who taught competitive push hands. I did learn from them too, but I did not stay with them long. It was simply not the direction I needed to go. I usually don’t even list them on my MA vita.

I guess I should add, if someone has something to prove, however, I don’t mind stepping in to allow them to make the effort. I just think there are more optimal methods to teaching.

twocircles13 wrote :Yes, that is a good idea. A picture paints a thousand words and video even more. It would be even better if we got together in-person, so we could experience other peoples’ questions and answers. Unfortunately, logistics often get in the way, and give birth to textual discussions of a kinesthetic art. Adding a video is helpful.

@johnwang, for example, often does this, but I think requiring a video to ask a question might be overly restrictive to discussion. Even a video sometimes does not capture what is going on internally. I am not sure how I would make a video showing or asking a question about listening jin or understanding jin.

a picture does paint a thousand words...we are in the 21st century cell phones all over....should be easy.
why would it be better to get together?

Used to go to push hands meet ups, in the SF Bay area. in almost all cases ended up helping to correct misconceptions by those there..who feeling what they did was correct but not correct for taiji nor something that would lead to actual usage...

After awhile stopped, most not really interested in taiji..Only interested in finding a way to prevent what was happening to them to not happen..

I guess I have had a different experience with get-togethers. We used to have a push hands meet up one Saturday each month at my school in Arkansas, although it was supposed to rotate locations, it never did. Long story short, I thought everyone benefitted. I know I certainly did. We stopped shortly before I moved because I was moving.

In China and Taiwan, its kind of the same only a little different in that they do recognize and understand the meaning of "勁 (Jin) "

They tend to use the practice with others as a type of. sudo sparring again which leads to bad outcomes when meeting those who do not "push hands" but "hit face"

Many yrs ago I had visited Master Lin, A (Nian) Long and his group with some of my taiji students from the US some of them borne in Taiwan acting as translators.

I am not sure how I would make a video showing or asking a question about listening jin or understanding jin.

Make a video showing what you consider "sticking" to be
for questions make one showing when you can not "stick". asking why or how to stick...

Well Duh! Where’s the facepalm emoji?
I said it myself. Listening jin is discussed in connection with push hands and is almost always associated with Sticking.

Or just one showing some basic movement...either way it would provide a level to gauge what is written by...

My point about the videos was that it's quite easy to criticize others with out showing any of ones own work....many write well but don't really say much...

a picture is worth a thousand words.

I agree that we should be seeking understanding of each other and not criticizing. I also agree that video clarify the discussion. However, I think I will still respond to those who post questions or comments without videos.

[windwalker]

I agree that we should be seeking understanding of each other and not criticizing. I also agree that video clarify the discussion. However, I think I will still respond to those who post questions or comments without videos.

Here

The main focus seems to be posting others videos to critique them

Adam Minzer comes to mind

Its funny...

Regardless...When I had a group others would sometimes come,,Took the opportunity to allow those I was working with to feel something different, and test their own understanding.
In that sense it can be good. other then that kind of waste of time IMO

unless they want to train,,,,

The video thing for me is kind of an indicator of ones practice. vs their writing ability...
Have long since gotten past the point of being frustrated by those who criticize videos showing what they've just written about.
Or even posting clips that get criticized of famous masters showing the same..

Very amusing now

[twocircles13]

I agree that we should be seeking understanding of each other and not criticizing. I also agree that video clarify the discussion. However, I think I will still respond to those who post questions or comments without videos.

Here

The main focus seems to be posting others videos to critique them

Adam Minzer comes to mind

Its funny...

Regardless...When I had a group others would sometimes come,,Took the opportunity to allow those I was working with to feel something different, and test their own understanding.
In that sense it can be good. other then that kind of waste of time IMO

unless they want to train,,,,

The video thing for me is kind of an indicator of ones practice. vs their writing ability...
Have long since gotten past the point of being frustrated by those who criticize videos showing what they've just written about.
Or even posting clips that get criticized of famous masters showing the same..

Very amusing now

Well, this discussion officially has gone on a tangent and is off the topic. Let me just add a thought or two before I abandon the tangent.

I made commitments to my teachers. One of those was to preserve the art of Chen Fa-Ke. Hong Junsheng recorded his example was not to criticize others, even if he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they had no skill. If he saw something that was an excellent display of skill, Chen would say, “Very good!” Whether someone lacked skill or he didn’t comprehend what they were trying to show, he would say. “I don’t understand.” Feng Zhiqiang said Che Fa-Ke told him to learn everywhere.

My Wutan system teachers from Taiwan told us, paraphrasing, simply because we do not understand what another was doing, it does not make us the BS police. They encouraged us to watch, consider, contemplate, and learn.

These were also presented to me as developing integrity and uprightness. This is related to Chinese culture and values, but that was also the context within which I made my commitments. I do my best.

[everything]

Have no idea why he used the English term “identifying”.

There seems to have been over intellectualizing by somebody writing or editing somewhere in the original “text”.

Then more so with translations.

Then with pondering on meanings in translated phrases and choices of words.

Agree about the think less feel more point at the end of the day.

Think this is again why “keep it simple stupid” is best.

Translators make decisions all the time that ideally they would footnote the reasons for those word choices, but doing so will often make a translation cumbersome to read. Most translators opt for readability. There are many translations that have misled and still mislead their readers, because of their word choices. That is why Mr. Brennan’s painstaking work to include the Chinese text is so valuable. Like all translations, his translations reflect his perspective and experience with the subject of the text, but if something catches you as odd, you can just look up the characters, phrases, or sentences in the Chinese text to see what the original author wrote,... for free.

sure. to attempt to be more clear, my point about translation issue is not meant to criticize Brennan's translations (I simply don't know why he would say "identify" instead of "understand"). it's to say the original post says things like "interpret" ... "the key" etc., etc. and it seems as if these translation issues and the issues of "text commentary" presumably by people in awe of YLC (as I said already at massive length and repeat often) lead to some riddle. but at the end of the day it's what WW and Quigga said.

[BruceP]

It would be better for those questioning to post clips of their work showing something they feel is demonstrative of what they feel it is..

How about a simple exercise that anyone can do in less than a couple of minutes that would allow them to 'feel' and understand the idea?

Anybody?

[charles]

Well, this discussion officially has gone on a tangent and is off the topic. Let me just add a thought or two before I abandon the tangent.

These were also presented to me as developing integrity and uprightness. This is related to Chinese culture and values, but that was also the context within which I made my commitments. I do my best.

This topic is worthy of its own discussion. I'll not highjack the current discussion further but did want to compliment you on your posts here as a good example of the embodiment of adherence to that commitment. Thank you. Behaviour that each of us can aspire to achieve.

[Quigga]

Depends on whether you use Qi to move your body or use your body to move Qi

One is a trap, the other a stepping stone

Depends on how much energy you can safely lock into your body without burning a fuse, losing it again, becoming overwhelmed

If you relax the pelvic floor too much you lose everything again and again

Not talking strictly about ejaculating here

Too tight and you just got a broom stick up your arse, i.e. being uptight and no fun to be around

Also when it's too loose you're very vulnerable to fear and others projecting their energy thoughts emotion onto you

So just the right amount of stability required

A small stream may turn into a river into the Yangtze eventually, with long long time

I'm somewhere between stream and river, maybe

Animals like to eat other animals by biting the perineum and ripping it up to get the organs asap

Food for thought lol

Always send the excess out the arms without effecting others around you

Too much through the head will make you go cray cray

[Bhassler]

If you can't understand your own Jin, you can't possibly understand another one's.

Not necessarily. Babies learn to understand their own bodies by first mapping out the environment around them. The basic concept of 'self' is predicated on the existence of an 'other.' The whole concept of trying to attain some sort of insight or perfection relative to oneself without direct interaction with all of the world around is contrary to the natural order of how our brains work and how functional learning happens.

It would be better for those questioning to post clips of their work showing something they feel is demonstrative of what they feel it is..

How about a simple exercise that anyone can do in less than a couple of minutes that would allow them to 'feel' and understand the idea?

Anybody?

You've given a bunch in the past. The one I remember, and the one I spent a small amount of time with, was standing on a narrow, elevated, possibly slightly unstable surface (in your case I think it was an i-beam on top of a building that was being constructed) and looking straight up at the sky. I revisited it after reading your post and have a different understanding of it now than I did when I tried it before. I'm not sure if that one relates to ting/dong jin specifically. I'm actually not sure I fully understand anything you say, but it's sure been enlightening to try....

[Quigga]

Bhassler I agree with you

Sometimes I have a tendency to either over or under complicate things

It's a mutually nurturing relationship, as always

Some people live as only themselves exist and others do not, others only as if others exist and they themselves do not

One part cant be without the other, and trying to escape in either direction of heaven or hell will lead to failure