Starting Push Hands Training

[charles]

Thank you Trip.

[wayne hansen]

The heels are asleep the toes alive

[denchen]

I'm not familiar with breathing from the heels, though whole body movement is a basic requirement.
Perhaps heels is a poor translation, breathing through the feet as I was taught uses the Yongquan in
medial plantar behind the toes.
Some wai dan exercises such as last section of Ba Duan actively keep heels raised as you breath and raise the body concentrating energy through these bubbling wells in the feet so the phrase breathing through the heels could be misleading in some contexts.

[Trip]

I'm not familiar with breathing from the heels, though whole body movement is a basic requirement.
Perhaps heels is a poor translation

If you would just like to read for yourself
or, would like to offer an alternate translation here is one of the quotes from my initial post on the phrase.

其根在腳。發於腿。主宰於腰。形於手指。由脚而腿而腰。總須完整一氣。向前退後。乃得機得勢。

Starting from your foot, issue through your leg, directing it at your waist, and expressing it at your fingers. From foot through leg through waist, it must be a fully continuous process, and whether advancing or retreating, you will then catch the opportunity and gain the upper hand.

莊子曰。至人之息以踵。太極拳術。呼吸深長。上可至頂。下可至踵。故變動其根在脚。由脚而上至腿。由腿而上至腰。由腰而上至手指。完整一氣。故太極以手指放人。而跌出者。並非僅手指之力。其力乃發於足跟。而人不知也。上手下足中腰。無處不相應。自然能得機得勢。

Zhuangzi said [Zhuangzi, chapter 6]: “An authentic man breathes with his heels [as opposed to most people who breathe only with their throats].” In Taiji Boxing, the breathing is deep and long. You can either breath up to your head or down to your heels. Therefore when you move, start from your foot. From your foot it goes up through your leg, from your leg up to your waist, and from your waist up to your fingers in a fully continuous process. Therefore in Taiji, when your fingers are used to send away an opponent and he falls, it is not only due to the strength of your fingers, it is power that was un-detectably initiated from your heels. Above are the hands, below are the feet, and in between is the waist. When all are coordinated with each other, you will naturally be able to catch the opportunity and gain the upper hand.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... -quan-shu/

[wayne hansen]

Like was said before
I think heels is a mistranslation
Weight on the heels is dead
The rest of the foot is alive

[windwalker]

So I am here to ask the respected citizens of rumsoakedfist, when do you think a student, in general, should start push hands training? I am not looking to push people into it "as soon as possible" neither do I want to delay someone's training. But, when is a reasonable, rational time to begin? Thanks.

p.s. I am talking about cooperative push hands of the various kinds, at least in the beginning, as described, for example, in the Wang Fengming book, or the Ma Hong video. Not necessarily competitive push hands, which I believe comes later.

maybe when they can breath from the heels , that would be a good time


not a fan of push hands....A lot the interactions I've had with others working with me is in deprograming them from what either they've been trained to do, or feel they should do in "push hands"

Very frustrating at times as recently voiced by one of those I work with....He a relative beginner, the other he was working with more then 20yrs of practice unfortunately in the wrong direction for this practice.

One not understanding the practice according to his level, the other not understanding how to practice due to his level....both presenting problems that have to be dealt with in different ways...
Both not able to improve with out each other to practice with


This scenario IME often repeated, more so among those who feel they know what "push hands" is....Maybe true according to their understanding, maybe not in being able to demo any skill skill sets taiji is noted for....They end up reinforcing their own understanding among others having the same...focusing on things they can do already with out much training, instead of what they can not, that does require a lot of training...although in this case it might be more apt to say "de-training"


" competitive push hands " probably one of the main reason's taiji as a functional art no longer so outside of this medium.

It might be better find ways to demo things that can not be done or explained using normal body force , or explained according to what would normally be thought of as the way something would or could work..

Most importantly, be honest with oneself in their own assessment of what they can do, and are doing in demos....understanding something is not truly understood outside of ones own ability's to do it. "breathing from the heels". written about, but not shown as always,,,why not show the practical application of do so ?

"when do you think a student, in general, should start push hands training?"


why not consider any interaction with another in training as "push hands"

solo practice is push hands training, push hands is solo practice training.

Each a way of freeing the body, understanding what using the mind to direct it means..

[origami_itto]

okay, fine, charles, I was being a bit of a dick. I am once again releasing any ridiculous resentments I have invented and started carrying regarding you.

Regarding the subject of breathing from the heels. Everything in this field of study seems to have at least three meanings or contexts or manifestations or aspects. The more you talk about it the more people find to argue about. Breath, "breath", energy, awareness, force... lots of things involved in the synthesis.

The theory as relates to this thread and beginning instruction is pretty simple. In standing, instead of "stand there and relax" I guide their awareness through the body with particular exercises, allowing them to get in touch with their anatomy and the feelings of release and proper alignment in particular sequences. They will make adjustments that will lead into other adjustments.

Once they have meaningful awareness of the pathways of release, maybe they start noticing something traveling along it during this process, maybe then they start understanding how what we are doing is manipulating that something.

But standing at the front of the class saying "NOW USE YOUR YI TO MOVE YOUR QI THROUGH THE JIN LU." doesn't seem helpful to me. Show them where to look but don't tell them what to see.

[everything]

This is why part of me prefers “push hands” by going to judo or using it incidentally at futbol. Anything done will be “honest”. If I use mechanical song, great. If I can have yi lead qi, great. If not, great. I’ll just fall or not get to kick a ball. No passive aggressive or philosophical or translation problems.

[Trip]

Like was said before
I think heels is a mistranslation
Weight on the heels is dead
The rest of the foot is alive

Not telling anyone how to think
but, I think to add the word "weight" to Chuang Tzu's classic figure of speech,

"The True Man breathes with his heels;
the mass of men breathe with their throats."

Seems a misunderstanding of the "Depth" his metaphor.

"Weight" Leads away from the focus of
Deep Whole body Breathing
Whole body Energy

It's like someone saying, you are a "few french fries short of a happy meal."
and believing they're talking about your food
is missing the real meaning of what they are saying

Anyway, I won't continue to beat a dead horse

[wayne hansen]

Leave weight out of it
The heel is not the deepest part the toes are
The bubbling well/spring point being the source combined with the ting points in the end of the toes

[Appledog]

maybe when they can breath from the heels , that would be a good time

In most cases I have seen, it matters little if the teacher doesn't want to show it or simply does not know it. He does not show it, therefore from a practical standpoint the teacher does not know it. The teacher then signs his name to the lineage by authorizing a student in his name that does not know anything. 2+2 is four; the teacher does not know anything about push hands, and that is then justified by the student in a myriad of ways.

why not consider any interaction with another in training as "push hands"

If everything is push hands, then push hands has no meaning.

One thing I know is that push hands is as well-documented as the form itself. It is not a mysterious thing -- competitive push hands it is not, but neither is it at all unclear what it actually is. I notice all of the people who are unclear about push hands or who have bought into some wrong ideas come from schools with a sketchy lineage or no lineage to support them. Ultimately, if there are real skills present in the school, refer to the first point above; the teacher then should logically be able to explain how he got them or at least teach his students to have the same experience he did. If he is unwilling or cannot do this, then he de facto has no skills and should not be teaching.

[everything]

sometimes (most of the time? almost all of the time?) it seems the student is unwilling/unable to hear the instruction. it just seems too opaque and mysterious.

"do form"

"do standing"

people will say they are being ripped off, when do i get to punch someone or not get punched, it's fairy navel-gazing b.s., it's a lie, so-and-so didn't get the real, but so-and-so in other-family did, according to my know-it-all understanding of physics which knows-all this cannot be right, let me go deep on fascia, the jumping is to learn, blah blah blah, yeah but can you defeat prime Fedor, all manner of red herrings and excuses, many that might sound super plausible (probably especially if that teacher really doesn't have "it" and so probably justified).

[Trip]

Leave weight out of it
The heel is not the deepest part the toes are
The bubbling well/spring point being the source combined with the ting points in the end of the toes

Thank you
It was kind to explain it to me

[origami_itto]

Most people that did exactly the same training as Fedor would not be able to beat Fedor. Not really a good measure of the worth of a system.

[BruceP]

My experience is that often people who teach these exercises also don't realise that they are also moving from their elbows or shoulders while thinking these are the 'primordial stirrings of a dantien'

The irony of that statement while viewing week 5



Cool warm ups, bro