As Hard as you F*cking Can.

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

This is a thought I've had since my training session earlier today, curious what people think. Fair warning, this isn't IMA specific but given the discussions on the importance and quality of fa-jing for tjq, xyq, baji etc - it's a valid question to the forum in my mind.

I define a typical framework of steps for learning to fight as A) stances and movement, B) single techniques (offense and defense alike), C) application (Bag, pads) D) Sparring, E) Power

A and B are technical skill acquisition, doing it properly is valued more than doing it fast/hard.

C and D largely introduce conditioning, to consistently reproduce technique on call, or in their appropriate moment in randori/sparring.

A sparring or pad session with X rounds in it trains people to smartly allocate X energy to every round to prevent burnout. This is great mental and physical conditioning for combatives where fight duration is fixed and later rounds are exponentially more dangerous if fatigue sets in more for one fighter and not his opponent. "Gassing out" is a cardinal sin that waits for every "Knockout artist" that can't find their target in the early rounds.

I've had many discussions about the merits and failings of "most" traditional arts when it comes to prioritizing the skills needed for C and D.

That said - a traditional art, Shuai Jiao, that has some of the best methods for refining "E" - Having weights and pulleys to measure "How fucking hard can you do it," and "how do you train to do it harder."

I recently built a grappling dummy, (I call him "Bob," my goal is to destroy him) Bob weighs 85lbs and despite only being a few weeks old I've thrown it more than even my "Every damn day" training partners from the years at university. Throwing a dummy without fear of injuring someone has let me fix scads of issues with my throws simply by letting me "follow through" without worrying about the impact "Bob" will receive, celebrating it even. It is an element that has been missing in all my wrestling/BJJ experience.

In the same vein, today after sparring was over and Bob had been tossed around enough - I asked for a few minutes on the thai pads for the sole purpose of throwing a single thing as hard as possible, no setup, no follow through - just to play with "what is the maximum amount of force I can create" and how is it different from what I throw in combinations and sparring - and how can I refine and better connect those two paradigms.

Do you train to do it "As hard as you fucking can" - if so, how and how often? Or do you see no or mixed value in this approach?

[origami_itto]

When I hit as hard as I can, I hurt myself.

I practice issuing energy against my heavy bag and try to put as much into it as I can correctly. Mostly what I've found is that what feels more powerful to me is actually producing less energy.

Getting it clean in the right place at the right time is more important than trying to make a dirty strike harder IMHO. How are you making it harder is the question, and are you doing it correctly or just funly.

I feel like I get it best in terms of physical results when I pull the mental and emotional content out of the movement and focus on technical qualities, alignment and relaxation, etc

[RobP3]

There's a time and a place for everything. It's advisable to explore the full spectrum of speed - slow, tense - relax, etc. as well as develop all relevant attributes. Mind you, swearing never helped me to hit harder lol

"Getting it clean in the right place at the right time is more important than trying to make a dirty strike harder IMHO. How are you making it harder is the question, and are you doing it correctly or just funly." Absolutely

[everything]

let's say every time i go and kick a ball, i go 110%. i'll get hurt. if tyson shadow boxes, what is "as hard as he can"? if you lift weights, you don't do 1RM every time.

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

let's say every time i go and kick a ball, i go 110%. i'll get hurt. if tyson shadow boxes, what is "as hard as he can"? if you lift weights, you don't do 1RM every time.

At no point did I say "all the time" for any training method - The question in my original post was specifically "Do you ever?"

Referencing Tyson (or any professional fighter) is a weird one because they clearly would have explored the full spectrum of training.

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

When I hit as hard as I can, I hurt myself.

I practice issuing energy against my heavy bag and try to put as much into it as I can correctly. Mostly what I've found is that what feels more powerful to me is actually producing less energy.

I feel like I get it best in terms of physical results when I pull the mental and emotional content out of the movement and focus on technical qualities, alignment and relaxation, etc

Three things here - "Hit 100%, get hurt," "Hit 100%, lose technique," "Enjoy practicing for qualities other than power."
All fine positions, but here's a question: "What if your training allowed you to use the full scope of your power without injuring yourself or losing form." It might not do a lot for your relaxation, but two major sticking points disappear - does hitting hard make your training objectively less enjoyable when risk of injury and loss of form are not an issue?

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

There's a time and a place for everything. It's advisable to explore the full spectrum

I agree, and this is the basis of my question, "Do you explore that full spectrum?" and how does that spectrum change with experience with other practitioners. BJJ competitors will frequently have "bad experiences" trying to do standup with Judoka and Wrestlers because of the intensity the latter are willing to pursue the takedown. "Extreme" intensity for BJJ is "Normal" for them, and outside of IBJJF rules, BJJ adepts are often at a large disadvantage as a result.

Mind you, swearing never helped me to hit harder lol

[origami_itto]

When I hit as hard as I can, I hurt myself.

I practice issuing energy against my heavy bag and try to put as much into it as I can correctly. Mostly what I've found is that what feels more powerful to me is actually producing less energy.

I feel like I get it best in terms of physical results when I pull the mental and emotional content out of the movement and focus on technical qualities, alignment and relaxation, etc

Three things here - "Hit 100%, get hurt," "Hit 100%, lose technique," "Enjoy practicing for qualities other than power."
All fine positions, but here's a question: "What if your training allowed you to use the full scope of your power without injuring yourself or losing form." It might not do a lot for your relaxation, but two major sticking points disappear - does hitting hard make your training objectively less enjoyable when risk of injury and loss of form are not an issue?

Every strike has the potential to injure us both, I avoid them wherever possible. You get a lot more precision with less risk out of starting from contact than crashing in. The force of the impact has to go somewhere.

When I hurt myself is when I try to hit hard, when my mental focus is incorrect and the wrong muscles are involved in the wrong way. If the focus is on "as hard as you fucking can" then that is chasing the feeling of hardness not the power itself. What is the objective measure?

Power comes from form, like wayne's siggy says. Then as much as you need is available when and where you need it. It's a much faster approach than simply hitting hard.

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

Every strike has the potential to injure us both, I avoid them wherever possible. You get a lot more precision with less risk out of starting from contact than crashing in. The force of the impact has to go somewhere.

IF it's a self-defense situation with no gloves or gear - yep, dangerous for all involved, but that's not what I'm talking about or what 99.9% of practitioners ever experience.

When I hurt myself is when I try to hit hard, when my mental focus is incorrect and the wrong muscles are involved in the wrong way. If the focus is on "as hard as you fucking can" then that is chasing the feeling of hardness not the power itself. What is the objective measure?

If form falls to shit, power isn't good. Hitting hard is a combination of proper mechanics and velocity, I don't think this is even a question. "Objective" measure is a bunch of wires and a computer which is rarely accessible outside of a kinesiology lab, partner feedback is anecdotal but readily available - I don't see value in letting perfect be the enemy of good in this context.

Power comes from form, like wayne's siggy says. Then as much as you need is available when and where you need it. It's a much faster approach than simply hitting hard.

...Right, but this is where I'm going to say "What if your current "hard" isn't hard enough no matter where you put it," and if you were in that 0.01% situation where a little more might have made a difference between hitting a takedown or incapacitating someone - would you hypothetically regret not training with this glass ceiling in mind more?

[johnwang]

Do you train to do it "As hard as you fucking can" - if so, how and how often? Or do you see no or mixed value in this approach?

I used to do about 60 reps like this daily. Since I can't train this on a live person, I see great value there. Just make sure when you stand up your dummy from the ground, try to do it slowly. 85 lbs may not sound much, but after you have repeated it over 60 times and do it every day, it will hurt your elbow joints if you lift it up too fast. I have hurt my elbow joints 3 times by doing this and I have learned a great lesson.

[origami_itto]

Every strike has the potential to injure us both, I avoid them wherever possible. You get a lot more precision with less risk out of starting from contact than crashing in. The force of the impact has to go somewhere.

IF it's a self-defense situation with no gloves or gear - yep, dangerous for all involved, but that's not what I'm talking about or what 99.9% of practitioners ever experience.

When I hurt myself is when I try to hit hard, when my mental focus is incorrect and the wrong muscles are involved in the wrong way. If the focus is on "as hard as you fucking can" then that is chasing the feeling of hardness not the power itself. What is the objective measure?

If form falls to shit, power isn't good. Hitting hard is a combination of proper mechanics and velocity, I don't think this is even a question. "Objective" measure is a bunch of wires and a computer which is rarely accessible outside of a kinesiology lab, partner feedback is anecdotal but readily available - I don't see value in letting perfect be the enemy of good in this context.

Power comes from form, like wayne's siggy says. Then as much as you need is available when and where you need it. It's a much faster approach than simply hitting hard.

...Right, but this is where I'm going to say "What if your current "hard" isn't hard enough no matter where you put it," and if you were in that 0.01% situation where a little more might have made a difference between hitting a takedown or incapacitating someone - would you hypothetically regret not training with this glass ceiling in mind more?

Thank you I will keep that in mind in my practice.

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

I used to do about 60 reps like this daily. Since I can't train this on a live person, I see great value there. Just make sure when you stand up your dummy from the ground, try to do it slowly. 85 lbs may not sound much, but after you have repeated it over 60 times and do it every day, it will hurt your elbow joints if you lift it up too fast. I have hurt my elbow joints 3 times by doing this and I have learned a great lesson.

Oh awesome, another dummy user! The dummy had been 55lbs, I repacked it up to 85 as I can only use it once a week and wanted it to be a more "power building" exercise (only 10-30 reps in sets, much like lifting weights at the gym). If I had daily access a lighter weight would be smarter, I can always remove the sandbags if it becomes too much. Feels amazing to be able to follow through on throws without worrying about injuring someone, I hadn't been able to live drill greco throws before and now several have become nature and it's radically changed my grappling/mma tactics.

[everything]

let's say every time i go and kick a ball, i go 110%. i'll get hurt. if tyson shadow boxes, what is "as hard as he can"? if you lift weights, you don't do 1RM every time.

At no point did I say "all the time" for any training method - The question in my original post was specifically "Do you ever?"

Referencing Tyson (or any professional fighter) is a weird one because they clearly would have explored the full spectrum of training.

sorry I probably completely mis-read your question. although no idea why that'd be weird. whatever the top pros do sounds like what amateurs would look toward (but lower level)? personally I never try for 1RM or anything "110%". I like Dan John's "Easy Strength" (but the strength guys occasionally test for max) in general and IMA's "70%" (same thing more or less).

[johnwang]

The dummy had been 55lbs, I repacked it up to 85.

I only use 85 lb dummy. One of my students uses 110 lb dummy. I think it's too heavy. I still have my 220 lb rock next to my driveway that I used to move it around. Every time I saw it, I hate it. That's not a good sign. Too much weight is not a good idea in the long run. We train because we enjoy of training and not because we force ourselves to train.

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

whatever the top pros do sounds like what amateurs would look toward (but lower level)?

If they are training the full spectrum of things, sure, that's the point I was making. If anyone is seeing a full scope of "physical" practice, it is professional fighters, comes with the territory and all.

To ask if recreational practitioners are attempting, approaching or even aware of that scope of practice was my interest. If your personal practice only includes "easy strength," or 70% efforts then the answer is probably no, and my interest would be in how you feel about whether that is complete training, you hadn't considered this concept or if having an accepted "elephant graveyard" of practice that isn't explored is preferable for you.