ways of control

[windwalker]

Facia, Chi, spirit

interesting levels of control




highlights from the 14-day internal martial arts retreat held in Chiang Mai Thailand in January 2023; Showcasing teaching moments from Liang De Hua, Richard Huang, Yap Boh Heong, Nima King, and Adam Mizner.

[Bao]

Anyone who actually understand anatomy and what fascia actually is will find Huang's talk quite ridiculous. Also, he doesn't explain anything around "spiritual body", what he means, how it should be defined, how it's manipulated. It just turns silly. What irritates me the most is that I have actually seen a few non-public videos from a seminar with Huang where he spoke about things in a practical useful manner, with results that could be reproduced, so I know he has the goods and that he can be a good teacher if he just wants to teach. Here apparently not. As with several of the teachers who show up at Martial Man's camp, it's better to just turn off the sound and examine what he's doing; angles, distance, leverage, etc.

[origami_itto]

Resistance helps these.

Huang's patter seems fallacious.

[windwalker]

How would someone make the distinctions that some of the teachers made in the demos concerning fascia , qi, spirit....
over whats considered ordinary force, as most people know it ?

[origami_itto]

How would someone make the distinctions that some of the teachers made in the demos concerning fascia , qi, spirit....
over whats considered ordinary force, as most people know it ?

Is this model the basis of your work? How would you describe it?

I would say he's just using different jin

[windwalker]

Is this model the basis of your work? How would you describe it?

I would say he's just using different jin

model ?

yi, qi, shen describes what is thought to be used and developed with each having its own unique properties typically combined in usage ,
according to ones level in ability.

The methods and processes shown in the clip, distinctions used by the teachers to showcase parts of a whole as "Adam" pointed out that they may feel more comfortable explaining, and demoing...

We "I" tend to focus on type and method of contact....
In my work skin, hair, air...describes level of contact / ability

I'd say the skin might align with the facia the first teacher mentioned.
some may have different thoughts

The teachers in the clip, all covered the same things using their way/method of explanation.

The demos after awhile tend to look the same with differences due to ability in level of the teacher...
Seems to be an unspoken method used to show distinctions between force, and no force..

Wondered for those here who "write" about it.

What do they use to illustrate what they write about.
if they do.....

[origami_itto]

Is this model the basis of your work? How would you describe it?

I would say he's just using different jin

model ?

A conceptualization of an abstract or subjective process or experience. Like the Bohr model of the atom or the heliocentric model of the universe. It's just a set of concepts used to describe something. In this case the fascia, qi, spirit.

yi, qi, shen describes what is thought to be used and developed with each having its own unique properties typically combined in usage ,
according to ones level in ability.

I would talk about attacking those in various ways. shen, xin, yi, and qi, once it becomes jin then you're dealing with the jin, but we can interfere with the processes that lead to it. The 13 postures function across each of those spheres of influence.

Not that I'm much good but there are moments of near clarity.

[everything]

at around 17:29, the teacher says he's "just showing the biomechanical truth of song" but "later we'll dig into how I'm going to project all that to affect you"

[Bao]

How would someone make the distinctions that some of the teachers made in the demos concerning fascia , qi, spirit....
over whats considered ordinary force, as most people know it ?

To make that distinction, I would shut off the sound and examine what they do, how they do things. Their explanations are not important. Just because they call themselves "master" it doesn't mean that they can explain what they do or that they even want other people to understand what they do.

[windwalker]

How would someone make the distinctions that some of the teachers made in the demos concerning fascia , qi, spirit....
over whats considered ordinary force, as most people know it ?

To make that distinction, I would shut off the sound and examine what they do, how they do things. Their explanations are not important. Just because they call themselves "master" it doesn't mean that they can explain what they do or that they even want other people to understand what they do.

maybe wasn't to clear

How would "you" make the distinctions that some of the teachers made in the demos concerning fascia , qi, spirit....
over whats considered ordinary force, as most people know it ?

video is best, considering the teachers are judged through the video not their "writing"

[Bao]

How would someone make the distinctions that some of the teachers made in the demos concerning fascia , qi, spirit....
over whats considered ordinary force, as most people know it ?

To make that distinction, I would shut off the sound and examine what they do, how they do things. Their explanations are not important. Just because they call themselves "master" it doesn't mean that they can explain what they do or that they even want other people to understand what they do.

maybe wasn't to clear

How would "you" make the distinctions that some of the teachers made in the demos concerning fascia , qi, spirit....
over whats considered ordinary force, as most people know it ?

video is best, considering the teachers are judged through the video not their "writing"

"I" would not "make any distinctions that some of the teachers made in the demos" using their own verbiage as "fascia , qi, spirit"

I would call it skill based on neijia principles, or principles and methods found in the so called internal arts.

I see the same type of skill as I would call a skilled archer or a rope dancer, or maybe a professional violinist "skilled". Anyone can try to shoot with a bow and arrow and anyone can make sound with a violin and fiddle bow. But "anyone" wouldn't do it with skill. You need to train certain muscles and your neurological system in a certain way to become a good rope dancer or to play the violin good. Try use "ordinary force", or clumsy effort using muscle contractions, to play the violin or to copy the actions of an archer and see how well you do. The difference is skill.

Anyone can uproot, unbalance or push away people. But not with the same effortlessness and precision as someone who has practiced these skills on a daily basis, preferably hours per day, for 10, 15, 20 years or longer.

When people say "I use Qi", I always feel provoked, not because the person would be lying, it might be the teachers own way to understand the reality of what he does, but because I feel it diminishes or minimizes the time and effort the old teachers had to put in to reach that effortlessness, precision and ability to use just a little bit of strength or movement to effortlessly control another human body. And it doesn't help any student to make them believe that there's a secret ingredient that could suddenly help them to accomplish what the teacher does.

Practice, practice and practice, a lot of time and effort spent to understand body mechanics, building a foundation and a certain shenfa, building skill and overall "gongfu", that is what separates people with skill and other people using "ordinary force". Skilled teachers use their muscles, balance, structure and nervous system differently than an untrained person. They also know other, skilled ways, to "play", "aim" and "shoot" another person's body.

Sure, you could also say that an archer must understand mind and intent. And that a rope dancer and a violinist use their qi more efficiently than "common people" using "common strength". It's all valid. But it's the long, long road, many years with a lot of time and effort spent and a lot of repetition that builds up their mind and qi skills.

[Bao]

Find it quite interesting as even in China, among the many local practitioners, there seems to be a schism between the old and young generations
the younger ones looking to verify or explain the terminology or practices using what some might call a western science out look.

example recent thread

To make that distinction, I would shut off the sound and examine what they do, how they do things. Their explanations are not important. Just because they call themselves "master" it doesn't mean that they can explain what they do or that they even want other people to understand what they do.

For me what they say makes prefect sense although each teacher used their own viewpoints to explain what they do, found the overall theme the same, consistent
skill levels varied.

Would expect for those either not having the same skill sets or experience's, might place more importance over what they say over what they do...
for others what they "do" might carry more weight then what is said,,,

For those having both skill and experience probably what they say doesn't matter so much, what they do, they might find it interesting, as I do in looking at different demos, ie approaches that some use to illustrate a point...

One can try to duplicate what was shown in order to understand how, explaining it according to their understanding / viewpoint

Or take what ever they found interesting in the presentations to make their own demos more clear or interesting....

Let's keep the discussion in the thread where it belongs.

I don't find Huang's or Yap's explanations "more Chinese". I find them modern marketing and branding. "That teacher use Fascia, I use Qi and manipulate the Spiritual body."

In the old days it was training and repetition that made the difference. If the "students" at the camp take anything those teachers in the camp say and try to use it in your own training and think it would make any immediate difference or improvement, they will just be cheating themselves. Because to develop and be able to do the same things, they would still need 10, 20 or 30 years of practice. What you later decide to call it wouldn't matter.

[windwalker]

"I" would not "make any distinctions that some of the teachers made in the demos" using their own verbiage as "fascia , qi, spirit"

I would call it skill based on neijia principles, or principles and methods found in the so called internal arts.

so called ok what should they be called

I see the same type of skill as I would call a skilled archer or a rope dancer, or maybe a professional violinist "skilled". Anyone can try to shoot with a bow and arrow and anyone can make sound with a violin and fiddle bow. But "anyone" wouldn't do it with skill. You need to train certain muscles and your neurological system in a certain way to become a good rope dancer or to play the violin good. Try use "ordinary force", or clumsy effort using muscle contractions, to play the violin or to copy the actions of an archer and see how well you do. The difference is skill.

Anyone can uproot, unbalance or push away people. But not with the same effortlessness and precision as someone who has practiced these skills on a daily basis, preferably hours per day, for 10, 15, 20 years or longer.

When people say "I use Qi", I always feel provoked, not because the person would be lying, it might be the teachers own way to understand the reality of what he does, but because I feel it diminishes or minimizes the time and effort the old teachers had to put in to reach that effortlessness, precision and ability to use just a little bit of strength or movement to effortlessly control another human body. And it doesn't help any student to make them believe that there's a secret ingredient that could suddenly help them to accomplish what the teacher does.

Practice, practice and practice, a lot of time and effort spent to understand body mechanics, building a foundation and a certain shenfa, building skill and overall "gongfu", that is what separates people with skill and other people using "ordinary force". Skilled teachers use their muscles, balance, structure and nervous system differently than an untrained person. They also know other, skilled ways, to "play", "aim" and "shoot" another person's body.

Sure, you could also say that an archer must understand mind and intent. And that a rope dancer and a violinist use their qi more efficiently than "common people" using "common strength". It's all valid. But it's the long, long road, many years with a lot of time and effort spent and a lot of repetition that builds up their mind and qi skills.

He also said: “Always keep your qi round, which is actually a kind of resultant force, and seek your own resultant force to be zero. The body is balanced in all directions, there is no collision, obstacle, or involvement, and it is flexible in all aspects.

Do you feel provoked ?

He was an old teacher quite famous, explaining it through his understanding of physics and traditional concepts...
The examples provided of "qi" usage is not the same... Kind of surprised that you would feel so..as mentioned experiences and skill sets...different

[Bao]

He also said: “Always keep your qi round, which is actually a kind of resultant force, and seek your own resultant force to be zero. The body is balanced in all directions, there is no collision, obstacle, or involvement, and it is flexible in all aspects.

Do you feel provoked ?

He was an old teacher quite famous, explaining it through his understanding of physics and traditional concepts...
The examples provided of "qi" usage is not the same... Kind of surprised that you would feel so..as mentioned experiences and skill sets...different

No. He didn't say "now I used qi", or "use qi". And he didn't speak English. What Qi means is contextual. Here "qi" means movement. He says "The body is balanced in all directions, there is no collision, obstacle, or involvement, and it is flexible in all aspects." So he is not speaking about "energy" per se, but about how to keep your body and move. Always keep your movement round and flowing, why would that be provoking?

[windwalker]

Let's keep the discussion in the thread where it belongs.

an example used in another thread illustrating a point,?

not able to use it to do so


I don't find Huang's or Yap's explanations "more Chinese". I find them modern marketing and branding. "That teacher use Fascia, I use Qi and manipulate the Spiritual body."

In the old days it was training and repetition that made the difference. If the "students" at the camp take anything those teachers in the camp say and try to use it in your own training and think it would make any immediate difference or improvement, they will just be cheating themselves. Because to develop and be able to do the same things, they would still need 10, 20 or 30 years of practice. What you later decide to call it wouldn't matter.

Don't know what they get out of the camp seemed like all were enjoying the practice and interaction..
They have agency, able to understand and make their own choices obviously, feeling it was worth what ever they paid for the camp...
any bad reviews by those who attended the camp ?

What the teachers say in their explanation makes sense to me for others maybe not...Not really why the clip was posted..

Found the teachers way of separating what they were doing using the distinctions, interesting, as some of the same distinctions were used in China when we trained.
Wondered if others did the same...

For example the use of yi, qi, shen...intent, inner force, spirit power, was quite distinct....each building on the other, some of them "shen" for example there really was no intellectual understanding that could be applied even in Chinese, that would make sense...
although it could be demoed what was meant by this ..


Thought others might use some of the same methods to explain their work...
maybe not