ways of control

[windwalker]

No. He didn't say "now I used qi", or "use qi". And he didn't speak English. What Qi means is contextual. Here "qi" means movement. He says "The body is balanced in all directions, there is no collision, obstacle, or involvement, and it is flexible in all aspects." So he is not speaking about "energy" per se, but about how to keep your body and move. Always keep your movement round and flowing, why would that be provoking?

so now you "know" what he meant according to your understanding
but others do not according to their's

When people say "I use Qi", I always feel provoked,

any way seems like our understanding is quite different. also the ability to allow difference's of others within it.
Without being attached to them..

With no videos of ones own work, allowing one to see what the understanding is based on,
anything can be written ...subject to interpretation...

[Bao]

so now you "know" what he meant according to your understanding
but others do not according to their's

When people say "I use Qi", I always feel provoked,

any way seems like our understanding is quite different. also the ability to allow difference's of others within it.
Without being attached to them..

But that's the point. The context is the point. What you referred to was not Wang Peisheng instructing someone saying "now I use qi." I have heard this "now I use qi" or "now I sink the qi" from many teachers, incl some of the ones in the MM Camp. I do feel provoked. I would probably feel the same if Wang Peisheng said it. But he didn't. He was speaking about how to use your body and movement. That's something very different. It's not that he as a Chinese use the term Qi, that doesn't provoke me. I get provoked when teachers use it in a deceptive manner or when they don't want to explain what they do.

So it's not that "our understanding is quite different.", if you mean understanding of "qi", or that "the ability to allow difference's of others within it." But you need to put the term in its context. Qi means different things in different contexts. If we speak about qi in the same context, our understanding would be the same.

[origami_itto]

So when it comes to spiritual control...

How does training your students to in order to enable you to control them fall into this?

I mean this in a couple ways.

Firstly, it seems like a lot of people teaching martial arts are really more about getting their ego fluffed and rice bowl filled by a little band of kowtowing syncophants.

None of you guys, obviously, you're all the best and in it for the right reasons. I mean those OTHER guys.

So to that end, they couch knowledge in obscurity and muddy the water to make it appear deeper, telling their students directly that they will never achieve the goal, their only hope is slavish devotion to the master and if proven loyal enough one day they may receive the secret.

Contrast that to like a professional coach type mindset where they are trying to use method to bring the "student" to heights of achievement that would be beyond them.

T. T. Liang made mention of "Green comes from blue" with the teacher being blue.

So keeping the student confused and ignorant keeps them dependent on the teacher, they discourage looking anywhere outside of the teacher for information or insight. They invent their own jargon to further remove the student from the commonality of knowledge and experience of the greater community.

The teacher then presents the students with exercises designed to, in this case, cause the student to react with exactly the kind of static tension needed for the teacher to effortlessly control them.

Is any of that happening here, do you reckon?

[windwalker]

But that's the point. The context is the point.

Yes it is

My understanding comes from those who have had direct contact with him some students, others direct students of his notable students.

In this context “my” understanding is in reference to what is termed by some
As a “气场 - Qi field “ this also must be round.

Would wager their understanding, would reflect mine, if asked for his meaning
could be wrong .

[everything]

Is any of that happening here, do you reckon?

you mean by people in the videos? or on rsf? doesn't seem like anyone here is paying anyone else here.

[everything]

"use qi"

the more i learn (albeit it's not much), the more "simple" it seems. when they say "sink qi", that's what it means. same with "make your qi full" or "make your qi round" or "relax" or "don't use force". it's not some kind of complication of translation, some kind of metaphor, some kinda con, some weird word because they actually meant "fascia" but the word didn't exist, or the 100 other weird shit people make up.

[Bao]

But that's the point. The context is the point.

Yes it is

My understanding comes from those who have had direct contact with him some students, others direct students of his notable students.

In this context “my” understanding is in reference to what is termed by some
As a “qi field “ this also must be round.

Would wager their understanding, would reflect mine, if asked for his meaning
could be wrong .

Qi can mean and be translated to "breath", "movement", or just that something is working without hindrance. They same author can also mean different things in different contexts. In Chinese, just like our friend Occam suggests, the most simple and obvious meaning is mostly the correct one. But If you can make a good argument that Wang actually meant "qi field" when the context is about body and body movement, I am all ears and willing to listen to your explanation. And at the same time, you can explain what he, according to his students, meant by "qi field".

[windwalker]

But that's the point. The context is the point.

Yes it is

My understanding comes from those who have had direct contact with him some students, others direct students of his notable students.

In this context “my” understanding is in reference to what is termed by some
As a “qi field “ this also must be round.

Would wager their understanding, would reflect mine, if asked for his meaning
could be wrong .

Qi can mean and be translated to "breath", "movement", or just that something is working without hindrance. They same author can also mean different things in different contexts. In Chinese, just like our friend Occam suggests, the most simple and obvious meaning is mostly the correct one. But If you can make a good argument that Wang actually meant "qi field" when the context is about body and body movement, I am all ears and willing to listen to your explanation. And at the same time, you can explain what he, according to his students, meant by "qi field".

Words and more words

a noted student

But what is Youji?

It is divided into virtual and real, or internal and external parts. But what is Wuji?

Wuji is a circle, it is just an empty space.

Now, in terms of science, any object, no matter what, it has both object and field parts.

We think this of this field as Wuji.

The actual field that he refers to would normal be referred to as the 气场 - Qi field

same time, you can explain what he, according to his students, meant by "qi field".

haha kinda the point no ?

my understanding based on experience, your understanding is based on ? ....
No explanation offered would make sense nor would it need to, if in fact its not what one uses to describe what they do.

"so far unseen"

writing about it doesn't count

[origami_itto]

Is any of that happening here, do you reckon?

you mean by people in the videos? or on rsf? doesn't seem like anyone here is paying anyone else here.

Yeah I mean that more about the video.

[Bao]

Words and more words

Wow... Lol! That's one way to flee when you know you have no answer. A passive aggressive attack, how courageous.

a noted student

But what is Youji?

It is divided into virtual and real, or internal and external parts. But what is Wuji?

Wuji is a circle, it is just an empty space.

Now, in terms of science, any object, no matter what, it has both object and field parts.

We think this field is Wuji.

The actual field that he refers to would normal be referred to as the 气场 - Qi field

First, 气场 (Qi Chang) is NOT mentioned in the original text. https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/W_eF6wj7Nu4D5OCd3EzPOw

Second, 气场 (Qi Chang) just means "aura". It means someone's natural aura or natural energy when one moves, walks talks etc. Quite common in classical Chinese literature.

I think you are confusing things.

my understand based on experience, your understanding based on words....

Sure, jump up on you high horse and try to look better again...

My understanding comes from my experience, not on words. My understanding of Chinese characters and words comes from my knowledge in the Chinese langauge and my studies in Chinese history and philosophy. Practical understanding and understanding of terms are different things.

No explanation offered would make sense nor would it need to, if in fact its not what one uses to describe what they do.

"so far unseen"

writing about it doesn't count

Ok, just let us agree that you don't want to answer my questions seriously, but you do have experience of a "Qi field" that is so special that it can't be described. Lucky you.

I usually enjoy discussing things with you and appreciate to listen on your view on things. So there's no reason to feel hurt when someone doesn't agree with you, and it's unnecessary to act passive-aggressive. You are better than this.

[origami_itto]

But what is Youji?

It is divided into virtual and real, or internal and external parts. But what is Wuji?

Wuji is a circle, it is just an empty space.

Now, in terms of science, any object, no matter what, it has both object and field parts.

We think this field is Wuji.

The actual field that he refers to would normal be referred to as the 气场 - Qi field

First, 气场 (Qi Chang) is NOT mentioned in the original text. https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/W_eF6wj7Nu4D5OCd3EzPOw

Second, 气场 (Qi Chang) just means "aura". It means someone's natural aura or natural energy when one moves, walks talks etc. Quite common in classical Chinese literature.

I think you are confusing things.

my understand based on experience, your understanding based on words....

Sure, jump up on you high horse and try to look better again...

My understanding comes from my experience, not on words. My understanding of Chinese characters and words comes from my knowledge in the Chinese langauge and my studies in Chinese history and philosophy. Practical understanding and understanding of terms are different things.

No explanation offered would make sense nor would it need to, if in fact its not what one uses to describe what they do.

"so far unseen"

That's where we get so messed up with the idea of Qi. Everything has radiation, so everything emits a measurable amount of energy. Everything.

And everything has Qi, the weather, the poem the caligraphy, the person, and there is a field of qi they all exist within, that's great.

So, what, does that mean you can speak a poem to change the weather? Control a person with a brush stroke? Does the shape of the mountain make you sick?

It's not the force, man. This shit is crazy.

The closest thing I've really seen to Qi in western science is the discarded concept of the Ether, but even that is not the same. It was basically a way to account for things that weren't yet understood explicitly until they were understood and the falsity of the model could be demonstrated.

[windwalker]

Sure, jump up on you high horse and try to look better again...

My understanding comes from my experience, not on words. My understanding of Chinese characters and words comes from my knowledge in the Chinese langauge and my studies in Chinese history and philosophy. Practical understanding and understanding of terms are different things.

High horse

Hardly:)

I’d venture to say that my experiences are probably quite different than 90% of the people posting here .

So much so, learned the hard way not to post any of my or teacher’s work here . It along along the lines of the others, would become subject to ridicule, as theirs often is.

Often by those who never seem to post their own work

I do share viewpoints based on them as here.

Kudos on your Chinese language skills .
Not the subject

would ask anyone to post clips of their work in order that might help in understanding their level of understanding, over writing ability .

Not about horses

As sometimes is the case looking like we just have to agree to disagree .

Just pointing out the basis for a mine

[Appledog]

But that's the point. The context is the point. What you referred to was not Wang Peisheng instructing someone saying "now I use qi." I have heard this "now I use qi" or "now I sink the qi" from many teachers, incl some of the ones in the MM Camp. I do feel provoked. I would probably feel the same if Wang Peisheng said it. But he didn't. He was speaking about how to use your body and movement. That's something very different. It's not that he as a Chinese use the term Qi, that doesn't provoke me. I get provoked when teachers use it in a deceptive manner or when they don't want to explain what they do.

people who abuse the terminology to hide stuff is infuriating. But it could also be possible the terminology "now I use qi" is actually what is happening and you just don't see it. How is it possible to make such a distinction?

[windwalker]

First, 气场 (Qi Chang) is NOT mentioned in the original text. https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/W_eF6wj7Nu4D5OCd3EzPOw

Second, 气场 (Qi Chang) just means "aura". It means someone's natural aura or natural energy when one moves, walks talks etc. Quite common in classical Chinese literature.

I think you are confusing things.

No one is confused

anyone who had experience would understand the difference between implicitly stating something and explicitly having to describe it...

based on my experience there is no other way to understand this..气场 a common expression meaning what it means.

Not translated to an English equivalent."Aura" this would be a mistake..

Don't know what an Aura is, do know what a 气场 is ...How would one "know if they'er the same

my understanding based on experience, your understanding based on words....

Hurt,

find it amusing

Seems we definitely have some different ideas about how and why things work...

all cool

[everything]

But that's the point. The context is the point. What you referred to was not Wang Peisheng instructing someone saying "now I use qi." I have heard this "now I use qi" or "now I sink the qi" from many teachers, incl some of the ones in the MM Camp. I do feel provoked. I would probably feel the same if Wang Peisheng said it. But he didn't. He was speaking about how to use your body and movement. That's something very different. It's not that he as a Chinese use the term Qi, that doesn't provoke me. I get provoked when teachers use it in a deceptive manner or when they don't want to explain what they do.

people who abuse the terminology to hide stuff is infuriating. But it could also be possible the terminology "now I use qi" is actually what is happening and you just don't see it. How is it possible to make such a distinction?

the "Way" seems quite difficult to explain and quite difficult to follow. when we see various teachers explain what they are doing, they all say very clearly that it doesn't work if they try to "use force". this is probably frustrating because they are trying to say something works by "not doing something else that you would typically do". kind of defining the +, by saying it's "not the -". people have a big discomfort with that, the double negative or the only seeing the thing by looking at the negative space, but after a while, it feels quite apt. it's very "Taoist" ... the "doing by non-doing". i think this is why people give up and say let's talk about "physics" or "language" or a bunch of other red herrings, possibly to never get it w/o knowing.