Origins of Taijiquan

[shenxinhei]

Haven't had time to read yet but figured some might be interested.
"Unraveling the Mystery Surrounding the Origins of Taijiquan by New Historical Materials in Tang Village, China"

https://wtjsf.org/journal/

[Bao]

The article is about the Li family documents. It’s just a hoax.

[johnwang]

https://newmediamax.com/article/1ikz8e4fg2886.html

太極拳的初創者陳王廷共創編了一至五路十二勢，炮捶和長拳十個套路，五傳至陳長興、陳有本時，陳家溝開始由博返約，將十三勢一至五路合為陳式太極拳一路，炮捶成為陳式太極拳二路，而長拳則已很少人練習

Taiji founder Chen Wang-Ting created 1 - 5 Roads 12 Shi, Pao Chui and long fist 10 roads, Chen Village combined

- 1 - 5 Roads 13 Shi into Chen Taiji form 1st road.
- Pao Chui into Cheng Taiji form 2nd road.

Nobody trained the long fist form any more..

[twocircles13]

https://newmediamax.com/article/1ikz8e4fg2886.html

太極拳的初創者陳王廷共創編了一至五路十二勢，炮捶和長拳十個套路，五傳至陳長興、陳有本時，陳家溝開始由博返約，將十三勢一至五路合為陳式太極拳一路，炮捶成為陳式太極拳二路，而長拳則已很少人練習

Taiji founder Chen Wang-Ting created 1 - 5 Roads 12 Shi, Pao Chui and long fist 10 roads, Chen Village combined

- 1 - 5 Roads 13 Shi into Chen Taiji form 1st road.
- Pao Chui into Cheng Taiji form 2nd road.

Nobody trained the long fist form any more.

Thanks, Reading both.

EDIT: Anad there’s a number of interesting journal quality articles at the link. I’m planning to read those too. Thanks. Really good stuff!

[twocircles13]

The article is about the Li family documents. It’s just a hoax.

I know that the authenticity of source of the Li Family documents had been questioned, which would always be appropriate for such a find. I had the impression that the powers at be in China had done a lot to make the find and Chinese Internet coverage of the find disappear, because it didn’t to fit with the cash flow of the current narrative. However, I had not heard of any official denouncements of the material as forgeries or inauthentic.

Do you have a source for your pronouncement?

[greytowhite]

https://newmediamax.com/article/1ikz8e4fg2886.html

太極拳的初創者陳王廷共創編了一至五路十二勢，炮捶和長拳十個套路，五傳至陳長興、陳有本時，陳家溝開始由博返約，將十三勢一至五路合為陳式太極拳一路，炮捶成為陳式太極拳二路，而長拳則已很少人練習

Taiji founder Chen Wang-Ting created 1 - 5 Roads 12 Shi, Pao Chui and long fist 10 roads, Chen Village combined

- 1 - 5 Roads 13 Shi into Chen Taiji form 1st road.
- Pao Chui into Cheng Taiji form 2nd road.

Nobody trained the long fist form any more.

What do you make of this article?

Summary: Chen Yanxi trained people in the Liuhe Tongbeiquan tradition that his family preserved and it was called the Taiji Changquan. It was passed on to Jiang Rong Qiao and Yao Fuchun by Tang Shilin and Xu Zhan'ao. This would correspond to the period when Chen Yanxi was teaching for Yuan Shikai as Yuan Keding taught this art.

https://min.news/en/culture/f61afe55c2b ... 85ad8.html

[twocircles13]

What do you make of this article?

Summary: Chen Yanxi trained people in the Liuhe Tongbeiquan tradition that his family preserved and it was called the Taiji Changquan. It was passed on to Jiang Rong Qiao and Yao Fuchun by Tang Shilin and Xu Zhan'ao. This would correspond to the period when Chen Yanxi was teaching for Yuan Shikai as Yuan Keding taught this art.

https://min.news/en/culture/f61afe55c2b ... 85ad8.html

The translation is pretty rough, enough so that it is a hard to follow. I’ll have to spend more time with it later.

If your summary is accurate, my initial reaction is that Chan Yanxi teaching something other than his family martial art is unlikely. There is no indication that Chen Yanxi studied primarily with his father, Gengyun, and there is significant indication that Gengyun was gone from the Chen Village running the family branch caravan escort service and off to war fighting against the Taiping Rebellion.

There is no indication that the Chen family ever called their art Six Harmony Tongbeiquan. Perhaps Yanxi made up a name to satisfy people's curiososiy about what he practiced or to even mislead them to retain an advantage. but that is just speculation.

Du Yuzi, Wang Yan, Chan Fake, and Chen Zhaopi all studied with Chen Yanxi in his old age. We have videos of Du, Wang’s grandson, Wang Chang Jiang, Chen Fake’s students and Chen Zhaopi’s students, so we have a pretty good idea what Chen Yanxi was teaching, at least, in general content They are all demonstrating versions of the Thirteen Postures set and versions of the Pao Chui set.

So, I appreciate the assertion, but even if true, I’m not sure how it enhances our knowledge of the history of taijiquan.
,

[Bao]

The article is about the Li family documents. It’s just a hoax.

I know that the authenticity of source of the Li Family documents had been questioned, which would always be appropriate for such a find. I had the impression that the powers at be in China had done a lot to make the find and Chinese Internet coverage of the find disappear, because it didn’t to fit with the cash flow of the current narrative. However, I had not heard of any official denouncements of the material as forgeries or inauthentic.

Do you have a source for your pronouncement?

The facts speak for themselves.

1. The characters of the steele rubbings look more like modern tomb stone inscriptions and don't match the style of temples, especially not from that time. Also, Wong Yuen-Ming said he had looked at the documents and that he could see right away that it was a forgery.

2. The stones were supposedly the only thing preserved from the temple, but they were conveniently "lost".

3. The temple isn't mentioned in any official or historical document (it is completely made-up)

4. The story tries to explain why there are taoism, buddhism and confucianism mixed in Tai Chi, in a way that is completely artificial and redundant. Anyone who understands the history of Chinese religion would get this.

5. There are also "facts" that contradict the former official story of Chen Wangting.

So the whole story and narrative, as well as the historical and cultural forgery, isn't even well made. The hoax is poorly made and frankly said just ridiculous.

If there was one or two "inaccuracies", you could still discuss or argue for its authenticity. But when nothing makes sense and there is no historical proofs for the temple or any supporting record of the poorly made-up story, or rather "fairytale", then there's no authenticity to discuss.

...If it quack's like a duck...

[twocircles13]

Delete duplicate

[twocircles13]

The article is about the Li family documents. It’s just a hoax.

I know that the authenticity of source of the Li Family documents had been questioned, which would always be appropriate for such a find. I had the impression that the powers at be in China had done a lot to make the find and Chinese Internet coverage of the find disappear, because it didn’t to fit with the cash flow of the current narrative. However, I had not heard of any official denouncements of the material as forgeries or inauthentic.

Do you have a source for your pronouncement?

The facts speak for themselves.

1. The characters of the steele rubbings look more like modern tomb stone inscriptions and don't match the style of temples, especially not from that time. Also, Wong Yuen-Ming said he had looked at the documents and that he could see right away that it was a forgery.

2. The stones were supposedly the only thing preserved from the temple, but they were conveniently "lost".

3. The temple isn't mentioned in any official or historical document (it is completely made-up)

4. The story tries to explain why there are taoism, buddhism and confucianism mixed in Tai Chi, in a way that is completely artificial and redundant. Anyone who understands the history of Chinese religion would get this.

5. There are also "facts" that contradict the former official story of Chen Wangting.

So the whole story and narrative, as well as the historical and cultural forgery, isn't even well made. The hoax is poorly made and frankly said just ridiculous.

If there was one or two "inaccuracies", you could still discuss or argue for its authenticity. But when nothing makes sense and there is no historical proofs for the temple or any supporting record of the poorly made-up story, or rather "fairytale", then there's no authenticity to discuss.

...If it quack's like a duck...

Thanks, I had only seen arguments for its authenticity and discussion of the implications of its claims. But Chinese articles about it had all but disappeared. My impression was that it was a relatively modern collection of perhaps ancient writings by a taijiquan enthusiast.

The link is.a new article with new evidence, It is next on my list to read.

[twocircles13]

https://newmediamax.com/article/1ikz8e4fg2886.html

太極拳的初創者陳王廷共創編了一至五路十二勢，炮捶和長拳十個套路，五傳至陳長興、陳有本時，陳家溝開始由博返約，將十三勢一至五路合為陳式太極拳一路，炮捶成為陳式太極拳二路，而長拳則已很少人練習

Taiji founder Chen Wang-Ting created 1 - 5 Roads 12 Shi, Pao Chui and long fist 10 roads, Chen Village combined

- 1 - 5 Roads 13 Shi into Chen Taiji form 1st road.
- Pao Chui into Cheng Taiji form 2nd road.

Nobody trained the long fist form any more.

Summary: During the rule of the Qianlong Emperor a member of the Chen Family was accused of murder. He fled Henan for Shanxi, Where he taught the Chen 108 Changquan. This form became known as Hongdong Tongbeiquan. The author argues that this form is the lost Chen Changquan that was included in Chen Wangting’s original curriculum. It is generally accepted that soon after this during the lives of Chen Youben and Chen Changxing, Chen Wangting's old frame of 7 to 10 sets was condensed into a curriculum of two sets.

Chen Liqing investigated this claim and learned the set, which is performed in this video



Native Chinese speakers, pose correct or amend my summary as needed.

[Ad_B]

I have a question (sorry guys, I'm that annoying kid at the back of the class, in his own little reality who wasn't paying attention who pipes-up with something that frustrates the teacher, was nothing to do with the lesson and all the other kids laugh....but here goes!)

Anyway, re: origins of Taijiquan.

I read alot of histories and tend to accept with Hai Yang (https://www.youtube.com/@HaiYangChannel) that Taijiquan as a particular set of principles & etc is probably no more than 400 years old. However, the individual principles and concepts originate anywhere from anytime on the evolutionary journies from stoneage to civilisation, healthcare, physical performance, survival, warfare, ordinary life, religions & philosophies, medicinals, martial arts, politics and economics & etc?

If so, then wouldn't 'Origins of Taijiquan' actually include a lot of individual conceptual and practical origins (maybe such as i.e:'The arts of patrolling the Silk-road without getting worn-out or killed') that find a confluence in the stated methodology of the 19th Century Yang family art and its stated evolution from a Chen discipline of that era which could have had several similar 'competitor disciplines' but, for all intents and purposes, 'that art' is the origional Taijiquan?

If so, then to seek a further-back origins would actually be to seek the origins of 'the individual things and concepts' of that art ?

The reason I enquire in such a manner is because my experience of studying, exploring, training, evaluating, trying applying (to work life and ordinary life) and hopefully evolving into an 'operational persona' the priciples and dynamics of Taijiquan result in a 'spidey-sense', from realising the brilliance and beauty of this stuff relating to health/motility/energy/performance/attitude/spirit etc, is that its pre-Yang family Taijiquan origins must have been a very diverse, from a lot of co-related or unrelated disciplines and over a long period of time ?

[Bao]

Anyway, re: origins of Taijiquan.

I read alot of histories and tend to accept with Hai Yang (https://www.youtube.com/@HaiYangChannel) that Taijiquan as a particular set of principles & etc is probably no more than 400 years old. However, the individual principles and concepts originate anywhere from anytime on the evolutionary journies from stoneage to civilisation, healthcare, physical performance, survival, warfare, ordinary life, religions & philosophies, medicinals, martial arts, politics and economics & etc?
...
If so, then to seek a further-back origins would actually be to seek the origins of 'the individual things and concepts' of that art ?

The reason I enquire in such a manner is because my experience of studying, exploring, training, evaluating, trying applying (to work life and ordinary life) and hopefully evolving into an 'operational persona' the priciples and dynamics of Taijiquan result in a 'spidey-sense', from realising the brilliance and beauty of this stuff relating to health/motility/energy/performance/attitude/spirit etc, is that its pre-Yang family Taijiquan origins must have been a very diverse, from a lot of co-related or unrelated disciplines and over a long period of time ?

Would believe that your assumptions sums up a big deal of Taijiquan history. It's complex. My teacher thought that no one could have "invented" it as Taijiquan is much too complex for anyone to have invented it. We can also trace parts as names, postures and concepts a long way back. So different people have probably added, developed different exercises and systems leading up to what is now called Taijiquan.

Some people say that Taijiquan starts around the 500s and that Taijiquan, as a pre-Taijiquan version, was a developed art already around the 11-12 century. IMO, this actually makes sense from a historical perspective. The "hanxiong babei" (pluck chest, raise back) can be traced back to taoist exercise manuals from even earlier than the 500s (the 300s if I remember correctly). Some simple Tai Chi similar exercises are said to be dated back to the 500s. And later, in the song dynasty, taoist and buddist monks travelled around selling exercises and teaching the upper class and literati. Already back then taoist and buddist exercises were mixed, though the buddists focused on meditation and enlightenment, and the taoists on longevity exercises. We also have quite complex martial arts systems dating from this area.

Chen Wangting probably practiced some kind of Chinese boxing art, but I don't think he had much to do with Taijiquan, probably nothing at all. It's just recently he has become the "inventor". Earlier, most Chen style people thought that other persons were more likely to have developed Taijiquan.

[GrahamB]

It’s generally considered that the technology behind Taijiquan is the lie he and that it’s much older than Taijiquan itself. All sorts of martial arts have liu he as part of their name, indicating its widespread use.

[Bao]

6H or “liuhe” is a very common Chinese expression. It just means something that stretches out through all directions, the liuhe bridge, the liuhe pagoda etc. The IMA 6 harmony theory comes from Xingyiquan and was adapted in the 20th century by the Chen clan and by Sun Lutang. The meaning is not the same as the general and widespread name.

Whole body coordination is certainly older than modern Taijiquan, but it was not called “6 harmonies”.