Origins of Taijiquan

[MiaoZhen]

There seems to be legitimate historians in China that are both believing and disbelieving of the authenticity of the Li family and other more recent manuscript finds. This article by Prof. Wile goes over some of those arguments. Folks should read it if they can.

https://mas.cardiffuniversitypress.org/ ... 2017.10184

[everything]

I'm not sure what "legitimate" means. This isn't really rocket science. It's stories... people are "arguing" about whether some mythical figure named Zhang really created "taijiquan". Physicists speculating on alien life seems like more realistic "scholarship".

If we know YLC learned from the Chen family, that still doesn't mean much does it? ... Who taught Michael Jordan? Tiger Woods? Fedor? Muhammad Ali? Tyson? Were they the inventor of Jordan, Woods, Fedor, Ali, Tyson "style"? Who taught Mozart? Should they be recognized for Mozart-style? How about Einstein?

[origami_itto]

I am going to start taking a drink every time you mention Fedor.

[Bao]

There seems to be legitimate historians in China that are both believing and disbelieving of the authenticity of the Li family and other more recent manuscript finds.

You should ask what “historians” and what they get out from supporting the fairy tales. I would not call them historians as they show very little understanding of Chinese history and religion. Wile is a good writer, but he as well show gaps in his knowledge of Chinese religion and Taoism. His whole discussion about Tai Chi and Buddhism vs Taoism is based on flawed presumptions.

[MiaoZhen]

Please read the article before you take umbrage with it. Wile does not take a position for or against. He's just mentioning both sides of the argument that is present in the Chinese language literature. If you want to pick apart their arguments (and just as aside, I'm more of the faction that think they are modern forgeries), then read the actual Chinese literature and we can come back and have the discussion. But, it's pretty poor form to criticize the article first without reading it, and second for what the article doesn't actually say. These manuscripts do not discuss the Zhang Sanfeng origin myth.

[everything]

I am going to start taking a drink every time you mention Fedor.

Fedor, Fedor.

"please read the Chinese blah blah blah".

Let's take a look at Fedor (drink) again. He was a sambo and judo champ. Let's talk about Royce. He was UFC champ and good at BJJ. Well...... all that came from Judo .... which came from other stuff .... so let's read the Japanese ... and let's read the Chinese ... yeahhhhhh that makes so much sense. Then we can kick Fedor's ass probably (drink).

[origami_itto]

brb getting new liver

[cloudz]

I'm not sure what "legitimate" means. This isn't really rocket science. It's stories... people are "arguing" about whether some mythical figure named Zhang really created "taijiquan". Physicists speculating on alien life seems like more realistic "scholarship".

If we know YLC learned from the Chen family, that still doesn't mean much does it? ... Who taught Michael Jordan? Tiger Woods? Fedor? Muhammad Ali? Tyson? Were they the inventor of Jordan, Woods, Fedor, Ali, Tyson "style"? Who taught Mozart? Should they be recognized for Mozart-style? How about Einstein?

what you're missing here is that some people need their legitimacy like a fat kid needs coke.
these styles are choc full of those types, some more full of shit mouth boxers than others.

dominate them at push hands and they'll trot out classics like you're using ( probably too much) Li not Jin. Because you can never use too much "jin" obviously..
Or some other crap, like that's not tai chi of you train to throw a punch at them and dodge one of theirs.

clueless... every god damn last mother truckin' one of them
(yes, please please picture that scene from Pulp Fiction)

[everything]

I mean I do get it (in a middle school sort of way) that it's fascinating to ponder "is it really a 300 year old legendary dude with a long white beard that invented a super-powered 'supreme ultimate' art". But obviously, it wasn't some 300 year old legend. To be "scholarly" to disprove it just seems ridiculous from a common sense pov. suppose we "prove" WHO actually taught YLC and who taught those people... what practical benefit arises? It seems the main thing is "Chen marketing" benefits!!! A way to take your money, basically.

If you know who taught Helio Gracie, do you decide to study that "lineage" (if it were possible)? Sure, maybe, maybe not. Judo is great stuff. But if you have some common sense, you most likely make that decision based on some empirical data and probably talk to some seniors better than you at BJJ and Judo, not on the basis of some sketchy "lineage" stories and theories. If you want some "woo woo" (to some) abilities, it should be the same. Common sense and empirical data.

But hey I like talking about "what the fuck is the tic tac UAP" so whatever floats your boat.

[D_Glenn]

6H or “liuhe” is a very common Chinese expression. It just means something that stretches out through all directions, the liuhe bridge, the liuhe pagoda etc. The IMA 6 harmony theory comes from Xingyiquan and was adapted in the 20th century by the Chen clan and by Sun Lutang. The meaning is not the same as the general and widespread name.

Whole body coordination is certainly older than modern Taijiquan, but it was not called “6 harmonies”.

Liu He Men(quan) dates back to the Ming Dynasty. Way older than Xingyiquan.

http://taipinginstitute.com/da-liuhe-men-%e5%a4%a7%e5%85%ad%e5%90%88%e9%97%a8/

A young 12 year old Dong Haichuan (1804-1882) was so good at martial arts that he was sent to Cangzhou (the martial art capitol of China at this time) to study with Li Guanming (1783-1863). He quickly learned that martial art and Li Guanming recognizing his natural talent didn’t make him undergo discipleship and be bound to him forever, so he sent him to study other martial arts, then those teachers sent him to study more. Moving from city to city all over China. Learning dozens of complete martial systems.
Years later, after Dong Haichuan had created his own martial art based on all his previous martial arts, which he combined with Daoist cultivation and some Buddhist methods, and became well known in Beijing he came across Liu Dekuan. Who was originally from Cangzhou and had studied Liuhequan with Tian Chunkui and Li Fenggang (Li Guangming’s nephew). Dong Haichuan quickly recognized that he was from the same lineage and he gained seniority and he recommended that his students also study with Uncle Liu DeKuan and learn everything they can from him. But his style was still his own so that’s why his stuff doesn’t look like orthodox Bagua.

.

[everything]

Probably another case of genius.

Should we learn whatever we can from geniuses?

Probably.

Can we really? No. You can’t turn me into Van Gogh or Spielberg.

Why do we talk like this is possible? IDK. Guess it’s more inspiration than aspiration.

Idiots on futbol forums talk about being like Messi non stop. But it’s not like you can go to Messi school and be mini Messi.

Dong and Yang are probably like that. This fallacy should have a name if it doesn’t.

No wonder we beat up tai chi nonstop.

[Bao]

Liu He Men(quan) dates back to the Ming Dynasty. Way older than Xingyiquan.

Da Liuhemen quan is a Shaolin art, it is not based on the principles of internal/external 6 harmonies. Easy to see that there's no 3 external correlations in their performances, it's all disconnected, pure external limb driven movements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrF8zmyJrg4

https://youtu.be/Qy-dlCp6U08?si=KFq1h_cTHr3v6S9h&t=36

[GrahamB]

Liu He Men(quan) dates back to the Ming Dynasty. Way older than Xingyiquan.

Da Liuhemen quan is a Shaolin art, it is not based on the principles of internal/external 6 harmonies. Easy to see that there's no 3 external correlations in their performances, it's all disconnected, pure external limb driven movements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrF8zmyJrg4

https://youtu.be/Qy-dlCp6U08?si=KFq1h_cTHr3v6S9h&t=36

The point is the age and the name, not how it's being performed here.

Liu He means six harmonies and it is in arts older than Xingyiquan (according to DGlenn, although I take all Chinese claims to ancient history with a pinch of salt). Therefore the concept is old. You keep conflating it with "6 directions". I'm not buying what you're selling.

[D_Glenn]

Did anyone bother to read the link I posted?!?

Bao, it’s not Shaolin. Shaolin is Buddhist.

Liu He Men is Moslem. The Liu He / 6H comes from the Quran, then they used the term to describe harmonizing the six parts of the body in their martial arts.

And the reason I didn’t bother to post any videos is because it’s all shite. Just like every thing else. It’s all dead arts. So of course it’s going to look disconnected because it died due to missed generations. And it’s a vast system and the good forms were the higher level stuff, so those probably don’t exist anymore.

.

[Bao]

Did anyone bother to read the link I posted?!?

Yes of course.

Bao, it’s not Shaolin. Shaolin is Buddhist.

Liu He Men is Moslem. The Liu He / 6H comes from the Quran, then they used the term to describe harmonizing the six parts of the body in their martial arts.

Your own article says it's Shaolin and that its "liuhe" is from the Quran. So when did they start using it as a "6 harmonies"? Before or later Xingyiquan was invented? You said Liuhedaquan used it earlier, where's the proofs?

When the writer of the article brings up the harmonies, he writes about it generally and doesn't connect it with Daliuhequan. How and when it should have turned into XY 6 harmonies?

The proof is in the pudding. If there's no external harmonies in what you can see, it doesn't exist. I didn't even post the worst wushu examples, I looked for more traditional interpretations.

The point is the age and the name, not how it's being performed here.

Liu He means six harmonies and it is in arts older than Xingyiquan (according to DGlenn, although I take all Chinese claims to ancient history with a pinch of salt). Therefore the concept is old. You keep conflating it with "6 directions". I'm not buying what you're selling.

The point in the name? The name doesn't say anything about what "liuhe" is meant. An "IMA" interpretation can have been a much later add. "Liuhe" is a very old and common name in Chinese culture. In 95% of all cases it means 6 directions. There's nothing here which proofs that the 3 internal +3 external harmonies were actually meant when the art was mentioned.

The article Glenn posted shows the opposite, it was a quote from the Quran:

"Zhu Yuanzhang wrote that “the world is peaceful and the Liuhe are unified, 天下平定，六合归一”. Actually this tradition has a very meaningful origin where the holy Quran contains: “Allah created the heavens and earth and everything in six days, and then corrected Alshi.”

There are several Shaolin arts and various forms with the name "liuhe", none of them have any kind of relationship to the 6 harmonies as in Xingyi.

And BTW, I don't try to sell you anything, I wasn't even talking to you and I couldn't care less about what you believe. You can believe that the earth is flat if you want.