What is the point of silk reeling - to you - ?

[GrahamB]

What is the point of silk reeling?


So, Mike Sigman raised an interesting point in his comments on my last post on silk reeling – “Silkreeling is about developing the elastic connections of the body.”

I agree with him. That’s probably not all silk reeling is about, but that’s the fundamental idea. But I wonder how many people who teach silk reeling or Tai Chi actually agree? I mean, there are so many style and different ways of doing Tai Chi these days that’s it’s almost like it’s become a terms for a grab bag of different skills all meshed together.

But perhaps we just need to establish a baseline. I’m interested to hear what you would call the point of silk reeling? How does that statement sit with you?

[origami_itto]

Cool warmups, mainly.

[cloudz]

That's an interesting question.

I don't agree with Mike necessarily, but that's not to say it wouldn't, couldn't be part of it.

"the point"; is quite subjective. In the sense that it requires or makes us become rather specific. And often changes with the practitioner, perhaps. Their focus, their narratives, their purposes.
It's probably a little less specific than that (elasticity). Conditioning the body in a certain way is a part - Yes.

Does it lend itself to Chinese martial technique(s)? Yes

Do I think other exercises are more specific to elasticity.. The quality of the body.. ? Yes I do.
Can they and do they fit together; yes

Is there even a traditional mention of "elastic" in the classical Chinese literature ?
Honestly, it feels like a pretty new term to me, introduced and propagated from Western practitioners for the main part.

[cloudz]

ok, so I didn't really answer your question, so here goes..

I like how Chris Davies (Middleway) has broken down the main Body Qualities (Skills) in his training program, Martial Body.

Elastic body is one.

The other one, which I think is pertinent to your question and is trained most directly via this style of Chinese exercise is 'Spiral body'.
Hope that helps..

[Bao]

Can't see the point of re-defining it, so I'll just go along with Chen Xin. He was the first person to put the term "silk reeling" in print meant and what he means was a general principle found in all IMA. He didn't mean any special practice or training method to develop something, but he described a result and consequence of IMA practice in general. Whole body movement coordinated from the center of the body, coiling movements, maybe together with some other shit, leads to a certain quality of body movement. You don't need any special type of practice to reach it, it should be a result of general Chinese IMA practice.

So what's the point of silk reeling to me? Nothing except that it's a name describing a common feature of Chinese IMA.

[GrahamB]

The famous Chen Taiji master. Chen Xin once theorized. "In Taiji, the whole body is filled with winding and circular motion, Internal winding motion is co-operated with external winding motion. When one moves: all others move simultaneously. All qi power is delivered from the center of the mind through the inside of the bones, then transmitted from the muscles and ligaments to the tips of limbs.”

https://www.nickgudge.ie/5.c.iv.-czl-ch ... ctice.html

[robert]

Is there even a traditional mention of "elastic" in the classical Chinese literature ?
Honestly, it feels like a pretty new term to me, introduced and propagated from Western practitioners for the main part.

The term 導引, daoyin, is often translated as guide and stretch. The meaning is guide the qi and stretch the body. This idea is pretty old and is integral to training the CIMAs correctly.

[cloudz]

Ok, but are you saying that it means is equal to an elastic quality (of force) as is used in IMA circles these days?
It certainly doesn't sound like it at all.

a type of "jin" basically... ugh I'm already regretting this.

seems like a totally different context to me.

it's the whole stretch and release idea really. Bend the bow
so basically the concept of the bow or bows.

that's become "elastic" quality or force. Which is fine. I'm more than happy with that interpretation.

[robert]

seems like a totally different context to me.

The Chinese say that taijiquan is based on daoyin. Daoyin is now called qigong. That's why the Chinese say that taijiquan is good for your health. That's why some taijiquan teachers say taijiquan is a type of qigong.

[everything]

way on a tangent, it's provable (repeatedly) that taijiquan (whether due to being qigong or who knows...) has many beneficial health effects (such as lower BP, beneficial "epigenetic" influences, reduced falling risk, and much more) that other exercises such as walking, running, stretching, etc. etc. do not have in the same ways. is silk reeling some important part of that (for health)? or for MA? idk but wouldn't think so. i think the "taijiquan" done in all those studies is far more pedestrian and non-MA-oriented in nature. but is "something" going on beyond, say, stretching? seems quite clear it is but people don't know what the x-factor is. if you are allergic to "qi", you can leave it at that. if not "qigong" whatever that is (i know people are obsessed with figuring it out) seems it.

[Bao]

Daoyin is now called qigong.

I wouldn't call Daoyin qigong and I don't call Tai Chi qigong either. Qigong is a modern name from TCM describing exercises with specific medical purposes. They follow the modern TCM theory. Daoyin and other old Daoist traditions do not. Exercises might look similar, but that doesn't mean the purpose and meaning behind them are the same.

[cloudz]

seems like a totally different context to me.

The Chinese say that taijiquan is based on daoyin. Daoyin is now called qigong. That's why the Chinese say that taijiquan is good for your health. That's why some taijiquan teachers say taijiquan is a type of qigong.

sure.. (the Chinese say a lot don't they ) what I was getting at - originally - was that there didn't seem to be an equivalent term from the classical literature; in the same context.
in other words what you would say is "elastic jin" or elastic force. whatever.

the practice of tai chi chuan taolu may well be a form of qigong. I'm very much ok with that. but that's not all it (tai chi chuan) is. wouldn't you agree?
It could also be called a form of neigong. It's become that in TCMA the jargon (terminology) has become of more consequence than the thing itself.

You don't need martial arts to be anything other than "boxing" or "fist", that it can be other things besides is something else. At that point we are essentially divorcing the training from the purpose of something. "Chuan" needs to come first if we are talking about a "chuan".

So My point is about martial force or Jin. Is there an equivalent Jin. That yourself of all the posters I have come to know in recent times on RSF isn't throwing one out at me. Basically means it's a no I assume ?

[Bob]

If silk reeling exercises, and that is an IF meaning I am NOT 100% sure when they were developed, I wonder how Master Practitioners, like Chen Yanxi and Chen Fake developed their chan si jin? Answer reinforces Bao's perspective and if you have Mike Sigman's dvds you might see another pathway but its been 20 years since I looked at them.

[origami_itto]

Words are important insofar as they help you understand what you are talking about.

This shit is getting pretty muddled.

Read Patrick Kelley's "Infinite Tao" for a pretty good breakdown of what they mean by elastic force.

Don't know about what you study, but in Yang Taijiquan according to a lot of the literature jin comes from the elastic force of the tendon/muscle complex.

We store the jin like pulling a bow, eccentric contraction to produce greater stored energy than a concentric contraction (li) can produce
We move it like reeling silk, keeping that tension stored and ready to release as we find the right place to aim it, slowly, smoothly and continuously
We release it like firing an arrow, instantly and precisely.

[GrahamB]

Bows are elastic. Same thing.