Principles vs. Techniques

[Appledog]

Tai Chi and Qigong, as well as all Chinese martial arts, begin training by copying and repeating techniques. Over time, these techniques become internalized and yield what is known as “gong” — the same word as “gong fu” (kung fu). This kung fu is the ability to express the principles of the art physically with your body.



The biggest mistake beginners make is to focus on the art intellectually and to try and understand or rationalize the principles of the art before being able to express them. It is good to understand what the principles are as a roadmap but no amount of “understanding” makes up for “perception”. It can also cause problems if there is a mistake in understanding because the student will miss or resist the correct training results later.

“If you want what I have, then do what I do.”

This teaching is easy to understand and easy to follow. The teacher says, “If you want what I have, then do what I do.” You must copy the teacher’s techniques diligently, precisely and accurately, trust the teacher and be patient to achieve results. This is difficult to understand in the beginning because it can take years to achieve results. So you must find a teacher who is both knowledgeable and virtuous in his conduct and you must follow him for as long as you can.



What do YOU think? What is more important? To understand the principles, or to perform the techniques? Are they really two separate things?

[origami_itto]

Specifically in Taijiquan as I strive to study it.

The important principles and techniques apply to the training method. The training method conditions the body, mind, and spirit.

Combat strategy is then a scaffolding using principle to inform the application of technique as a stand in until the true skill develops.

With true skill achieved the principle and the technique and the strategy become one, wu wei to maintain zhong ding. Everything else is an elaborating finger pointing to this moon.

[RobP3]

"What do YOU think? What is more important? To understand the principles, or to perform the techniques? Are they really two separate things?"

Technique comes out for principle. Techniques cannot exist without principle, but principle, when understood, can be expressed as the need arises. In fact, technique can detract from principles in certain methods of teaching.
Why take years? Move your head out of the way of the stick is a simple principle that can be understood and applied very quickly. Then you can work on refining that movement and it can be applied against any stick, or other object, at any angle.

[HotSoup]

They are mutually informing. One understands something while performing a technique, only to use it when training a form. Then develops a piece of body method in the form, only to realize a fundamental principle. The fundamental principle is then applied to generating a technique variation best suited to the situation one’s in. Rinse and repeat. Blind copying and rote repetition are as dangerous as over-intellectualizing. Learning cannot be primitivized to a single concept — our brain doesn’t work like that.

[everything]

principles sure but you have to have some idea what they are / mean.

problem is taijiquan is a Rorscach test. it's just a vague 2D diagram of ink blobs. humans are clever, or think we are, so we think we see something there. oh wait, look it's really longfist or bad-shuajiao or fascia or some kinda spirals in 3D. you can fill_in_the_blanks and convince yourself "you got it". everyone here (myself included) seems to have fallen into most of the traps. in some cases you don't know they are traps until you fall into them and something else happens. in many cases, people never realize they didn't understand. "The Tao" is not that easy.

[yeniseri]

From what I have seen and experienced for the past 50 years (at best ),the majority practice of taijiquan, its methodology, modus operandi and other levels of instruction, has been towards exercise, fitness, wellness etc and as a result. Disuse and lack of understanding has defanged the martial direction of what was once
the aim of the art.
There are a few martial circles out there but they are fringe areas, where few even consider utilizing its principles and corresponding technoques.

[RobP3]

principles sure but you have to have some idea what they are / mean.

problem is taijiquan is a Rorscach test. it's just a vague 2D diagram of ink blobs.

Principles are generally quite easy to understand - ref my "move the head out of the way of the stick" example. Not always so east to do, but that is what the drills are for.
And all those who taught me TJQ were extremely specific about postures, usage (where it was taught) etc.

[origami_itto]

problem is taijiquan is a Rorscach test. it's just a vague 2D diagram of ink blobs.

I think it's a bit nebulous and when you get into details we all have our personal understanding, but it's definitely not a vague thing.

Problem is as mentioned, what's taught is meant for a different purpose than the art originally served. Very few people have it.

Somebody said 300 million people practice Tai chi but maybe 100 really have it

Don't know if I believe that, exactly, I haven't quite met a million yet so too early to tell for sure.

Ego gets in the way

[Kong Bao Long]

IMO Hot soup just closed the thread with "They are mutually informing"

Really can't have one without the other, nor can your get fixated on one or the other. (as many do)

My linage of Xingyiquan many advance and practical principles are delved into with Bazi Gong (8 character skills) and Pan Gen Gong (Coiling Root skills)
Bazi gong is basically a set of "Bread and Butter" Xingyquan combinations. One studies the techniques/combinations , then one studies the principles. Those unfamiliar with Xingyiquan, a western boxing analogy, one learns the lead and cross combination (the technique) then the "when to apply" & "the how etc: (the principles) Pan Gan Gong (skills and methods are learned by walking a small circle similar to Bagua's single palm change, but much smaller. that has a lot more metaphysical kinesthetic skills but none the less the same.

[everything]

the inkblot is vague. droplets of ink blobs. the art may or may not be vague. although people think some "technique" is some punch or kick, or missing some leg thing. people say that on here all the time, an "internal" and "martial arts" forum.

haven't met 300 million either, but guess your 100 out of 300 million is probably right. although to be fair, 99.99% of that 300 million isn't looking for what the 100 have. out of the remaining 30,000, some large portion thinks they know what they're trying to find, or worse, think they found it already (ego i guess as you say. we think we're very smart b/c in general humans can be a bit clever.).

doesn't seem like the xyq/bgz crowd has this same dynamic at least not to the same degree.

[Bao]

Any type of practice of techniques that doesn't focus on trying to understand and explore the principle and mechanics behind them is a waste of time, IMO.

[origami_itto]

Any type of practice of techniques that doesn't focus on trying to understand and explore the principle and mechanics behind them is a waste of time, IMO.

Okay.... how do you do that? Can you give an example of how one practically focuses on trying to understand and explore the principle and mechanic behind a technique?

[Bao]

Any type of practice of techniques that doesn't focus on trying to understand and explore the principle and mechanics behind them is a waste of time, IMO.

Okay.... how do you do that? Can you give an example of how one practically focuses on trying to understand and explore the principle and mechanic behind a technique?

Practicing technique:

A does 1,
B does 2+3+4.

If you don't understand the principles behind the technique, you will only be able to make them work in the classroom.

Practicing principle:

Let's say we practice a qinna technique or a throw. If we are going to study the principles behind it we want to understand what makes it works and why, as leverage, angle, and amount of pressure necessary to make it as efficient as possible. You also want to isolate the different principles and see if you can apply them in other different ways.

When you do different types of techniques against different people, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. If you understand the principles behind the technique you will understand a) why they didn't work, b) what is necessary to make them work.

[wayne hansen]

I always laugh when people deride Chinna
It is training in body mechanics that may or may not work in any given situation
As I always say skill is passed on from hand to hand literally
If your teacher doesn’t have it you won’t get it
I see people run from one guru/cult leader to the next when and if they realise he is lacking
But they still want to stick to their previous tricks even if only on a mental level
As Sun said
Boxing no boxing
Mind no mind
Or CMC
Better to train with a child than with someone who uses trickery

[everything]

Better to train with a child than with someone who uses trickery

did you attribute that to CMC?

agree with this. i prefer futbol or other sports "incidental push hands". someone is giving you an honest push, and I can be the one applying the mild "trickery". if they happen to know some tricks, can be even more fun. you can only put part of your focus there while you're playing for the ball, so there isn't too much b.s.