How do you structure a class?

[GrahamB]

you seem confused, ive not asked any questions, i made a statement, that i dont think xingyiquan especially the five element fists has evolved from spearplay -

Yes, I am confused, I contradict myself, I make no sense.... And you are 100% correct.

No wonder why you've already left the RSF several times, you can't really keep to a civilized conversation. Same with Graham, but at least he doesn't run off and sob.

it was you that made a comment on that statement saying im wrong by laying out the common version one only can read about,

I am not laying forward something I've read, I am not trying to convince anyone and I don't give a fuck about what you "believe". I have studied and practiced the traditional Chinese spear methods I am speaking about. So I am speaking solely from my own experience, from what I have learned and I just confirm what others have said. You have the right to stick to your own view. Now I have tried to make myself clear. So if you still don't want to understand, well then you can just fuck the hell off.

U ok, hun?

[Trick]

you seem confused, ive not asked any questions, i made a statement, that i dont think xingyiquan especially the five element fists has evolved from spearplay -

Yes, I am confused, I contradict myself, I make no sense.... And you are 100% correct.

No wonder why you've already left the RSF several times, you can't really keep to a civilized conversation. Same with Graham, but at least he doesn't run off and sob.

it was you that made a comment on that statement saying im wrong by laying out the common version one only can read about,

I am not laying forward something I've read, I am not trying to convince anyone and I don't give a fuck about what you "believe". I have studied and practiced the traditional Chinese spear methods I am speaking about. So I am speaking solely from my own experience, from what I have learned and I just confirm what others have said. You have the right to stick to your own view. Now I have tried to make myself clear. So if you still don't want to understand, well then you can just fuck the hell off.

Bao with that language you have to include brush teeth to your class structure

[D_Glenn]

In Xingyiquan they call the movement of the lumbar and tailbone Bolangjin (when the tailbone tucks) and Fanlangjin (when the tailbone untucks, or returns to its normal position). To get a large spear to Shake (Zhen) it’s a lot easier and a better quality shock/shake if you can use these precise movements to generate it and let your arms transfer it out into the spear, versus only using the arms to do a fake shake. Bolangjin does the thrust movement (Zha?). And Fanlangjin generates the power for the pullback and down (Lan?).

A theory is that these movements to generate extra power then came into the empty hand movements. And it’s why they say that the spear is the root.

You can see Bolangjin and Fanlangjin being used in this Xingyi clip


https://youtu.be/m4tNJxVwd9c?si=_3gc5d9BRf9eptSD
.

[Trick]

In Xingyiquan they call the movement of the lumbar and tailbone Bolangjin (when the tailbone tucks) and Fanlangjin (when the tailbone untucks, or returns to its normal position). To get a large spear to Shake (Zhen) it’s a lot easier and a better quality shock/shake if you can use these precise movements to generate it and let your arms transfer it out into the spear, versus only using the arms to do a fake shake. Bolangjin does the thrust movement (Zha?). And Fanlangjin generates the power for the pullback and down (Lan?).

A theory is that these movements to generate extra power then came into the empty hand movements. And it’s why they say that the spear is the root.

You can see Bolangjin and Fanlangjin being used in this Xingyi clip


https://youtu.be/m4tNJxVwd9c?si=_3gc5d9BRf9eptSD
.

Yes spear/staff shaking seem as a good exercise, I’ve not yet tried it. Hitting a tractor/truck tire with a sledgehammer is another exercise boxers do, in Karate they swing the chi-chi(a variant of Indian club) also suburi-bokken are used(heavy Japanese styled wooden sword)
The spear - the “king” of traditional Chinese weapons could also be of use to bolster up the image of Xingyiquan as being a heroic warrior art,in the same manner as using general Yue Fei as the originator of it.

[everything]

if we want to look "into the past" at what humans used to do in pre-agriculture hunter/gatherer times, we can look at the North Sentinel Islands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sentinel_Island

The Sentinelese (what outsiders call them; nobody knows their language or what they call themselves) use bows/arrows and spears to hunt, and also to kill outsiders who get too close. Via simple common sense, if you have to hunt or protect your tribe from larger, fiercer animals, or fight someone with a spear, you probably better have a spear. So your martial art would logistically/logically most likely start with some simple, effective, handheld weapon that has cross over from hunting/gathering/defense from large animals. Plus all mammals seem to wrestle as play. So probably all martial arts done by all homo species with handheld tools come from those kinds of origins. Post writing and agriculture, you can invent much cooler stuff (from complex, abstract philosophies based on yin and yang, "heaven" and "earth", to seemingly weird things like neigong and circle walking lol or far less weird arts like xingyiquan --- which seems closer to what the Sentinelese would "eventually" develop).

[Steve James]

Well, yeah, all primates wrestle --in fact, all land animals wrestle. But, like the beginning of 2001, some animals will find that sticks or stones are force multipliers. They will be more successful, and the use of those force multipliers will develop more systematically. I.e., homo sapiens will develop systems of usage that can be passed down through generations. Also, better weapons often determine the outcome of wars for resources. It's no different than what happened when people with steel and firearms confronted people with spears and bows.

Imo, martial systems were first developed for weapons. Whether empty hand systems were based on weapons or created to defeat weapons might never be historically proven, but there are loads of similarities between empty hand forms and weapons forms. And, there are plenty of instances where an empty hand is used like a sword -or vice versa.: Even in application, there's a difference between using the "blade" of one's arm and not using it. or the difference between slap and chop, or circle and point.

[D_Glenn]

In the creator of Baguazhang, Dong Haichuan’s time, cold weapons were still very much in use. Since it was a time of peace, he would have the blacksmith’s in the Forbidden City forge all sorts of weapons for him. A lot of cqb stuff but also heavy oversized weapons for practice, to build strength so that when the actual weapon was in your hand it would feel light. Sort of like wearing a weighted vest.
Actual weapons training was only practiced in secret. So they would only practice empty handed in public. And to kill two eagles with one arrow, he made the empty hand 8 animals systems work using the movements of a particular weapon. Eight fighting systems based on eight different weapons. If you were disarmed then you would still seamlessly be fighting with your same form and practice. But if you had to arm yourself with an opponent’s weapon, being what ever it was, then that’s where learning more animal systems comes into play, to be proficient in more weapons and strategies.

The Dragon is the easiest to match up with its weapon: the double-handed saber or broadsword. You can almost do everything in the dragon forms with a saber in hand.

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[everything]

weapons

yes that's why i bring up the Sentinelese. If they want to fight you with bows/arrows/spears, you're kind of in trouble if your "martial art" is unarmed. so "martial art" would start from being armed (unless we could go back to before a primate picked up a rock or stick). then if we say "everyone was Sentinelese", it just makes sense. ffwd to baguazhang, and all that makes sense as well.

[Trick]

Back when I as a kid began learning Karate the very first class was structured so that first one learn to structure a correct clenched fist - which seemed a little odd I remember thinking back then, and some scientists now seem to think so too

https://www.livescience.com/25688-human ... hting.html

[Steve James]

The article says "evolved," but the reasons for such an evolution would be shared by all primates that could be bipedal. It's true that a fist produces more force than an open hand strike, but the whole reason boxers (like the one in the photo) use padded gloves is to protect the delicate hand bones. I can personally attest that breaking a fist on a skull is common. Anyway, it does seem obvious that fists make better "clubs." Then again, fists make it easier to hold clubs much heavier than fists. That's an evolutionary product illustrated in chimps too -even though they can't make a human-like fist.

In general, I think there has to be an evolutionary trade off. Sure, making a fist is an advantage, if it's to be used as a club. Otoh, too much club would decrease dexterity; and decrease ability to grasp and manipulate. Imo, the latter was far more important in human evolution.

Afa studying whether women's hands make them more dexterous, while male hands make them more dangerous, I dunno. Yes, in our particular species, males are bigger than females. However, "dangerous" isn't really a scientific category. And, it's been argued that the female is the deadliest in many species. But, ok, bigger individuals are generally more dominant -or try to be. (And that's why weaker people developed martial arts systems).

[everything]

it's a bit silly because humans have far superior technology and communication abilities which distinguish us vs. other species who could beat us in any unarmed fight. if we "evolved" to punch each other so we could, say, mate and pass on genes .... well that's not really how homo sapiens decides on mates. ah, gotta love "science"...

[LaoDan]

... if we "evolved" to punch each other so we could, say, mate and pass on genes .... well that's not really how homo sapiens decides on mates...

I don't know how you would be able to know or back up that statement. It may not be how mates are chosen today, but nobody knows what it was like as humans were evolving and diverging from related great apes. It seems as good an explanation as any other theory that Homo sapiens evolved a chin in order to strengthen it against being hit on the chin by a competitor's fist (perhaps an ancient mating determinant, like antlers on deer, horns on sheep, etc.)...?

[everything]

the simplest way to know/infer is b/c humans are closer in DNA and social structures (of course ours are more complex) to chimps (can be very promiscuous with females having multiple male mates) than gorillas (a dominant silverback is the only one who has "access" to all females in the group). further, we'd likely see chimp evolution go "the way of the fist" as well lol. this doesn't even get into bonobos and the female sexual arousal periodicity and a female dominated social organization. it's funny to think about on an MA board in OTT, but that's about it.

[BruceP]

Back when I as a kid began learning Karate the very first class was structured so that first one learn to structure a correct clenched fist - which seemed a little odd I remember thinking back then, and some scientists now seem to think so too

https://www.livescience.com/25688-human ... hting.html

tools

[Steve James]

Back when I as a kid began learning Karate the very first class was structured so that first one learn to structure a correct clenched fist - which seemed a little odd I remember thinking back then, and some scientists now seem to think so too

https://www.livescience.com/25688-human ... hting.html

tools

Homo habilis came evolved before we did (ok, preceded or coexisted for a time with us homo sapiens). It's interesting to conjecture that the fist was an evolutionary development, but I don't see how it can be separated from the ability to use tools. Yeah, other primates can't make a fist, and that might give us an advantage -but it's inseparable from our tool use.

Of course, we've found out that other animals use tools, even birds. In general, we've found out that animals are a lot more 'intelligent' than we ever thought. Then again, all our technological advancements are based on the fact that we can make things that improve our ability to survive. The first person to invent the bow and arrow was able to provide for their family better. That would make that person a valuable mate. Who knows, the inventor might have been female.