"Starting Over" in a new martial art

[wayne hansen]

TBF.
Hank Hill.

[Kong Bao Long]

IMO You can have just one master (one endeavor) if you truly expect to have mastery over it.

Some arts (with their origins that date back centuries) have shenfa that doesn't look practical by modern standards. These were created during a time when there was no orthopedic surgeon. You suffered a torn rotator cuff because you did the technique over and over..(training) You where as useless as a surf.

Arts that are centuries old arts are focused on a ergonomic kinesthetic approach. They had to be,
Why is this relevant to the thread?

If your practicing one of these arts ... IMO Mastery lies time in doing... sounds simple I know, but learning a technique that in grounded in ergonomics, you can practice it over and over without harm to your physical (joints, tendons ligaments etc) Ergonomically, it's sound... that means you will be able to do the technique till you master it. That old saying if you can do the technique 10,000 times you will have mastered it. If at 5,000 you have injured yourself through repetition? How deep can you go on the mastery?

IMO the masters of old understood the internalization of the shenfa through serious study, understood that when combined with the practical knowhow one acquired working on it over and over ..
an exaggerated example: You blow out your knee throwing a Question Mark kick ... so what... you just go to the surgeon.. right? its an Awesome kick, But totally modern. How long can you expect to do that kick? I've seen 70 yr olds that because they have thrown a front kick 10000 ergonomically, focused on kinesthetic ergonomics... there isn't much you can do to thwart what they are doing.

you keep starting over, sometimes you won't see what I'm referring to

[everything]

a normal person probably cannot master piano, guitar, bass, drums, vocals, etc. but maybe can be decent multi-instrumentalist and master "music". i don't think they ever really "start over" when they pick up a new instrument. they are already master of music.

[twocircles13]

a normal person probably cannot master piano, guitar, bass, drums, vocals, etc. but maybe can be decent multi-instrumentalist and master "music". i don't think they ever really "start over" when they pick up a new instrument. they are already master of music.

Yeah, that’s a good expression of my friend’s 80/20 rule. You focus primarily on the 80% that all music has in common. You will become a master musician, a jack of all trades but a master of none, rather than a master violinist, a concert pianist or a guitar virtuoso. It’s your choice.

[twocircles13]

IMO You can have just one master (one endeavor) if you truly expect to have mastery over it.

Some arts (with their origins that date back centuries) have shenfa that doesn't look practical by modern standards. These were created during a time when there was no orthopedic surgeon. You suffered a torn rotator cuff because you did the technique over and over..(training) You where as useless as a surf.

Arts that are centuries old arts are focused on a ergonomic kinesthetic approach. They had to be,
Why is this relevant to the thread?

If your practicing one of these arts ... IMO Mastery lies time in doing... sounds simple I know, but learning a technique that in grounded in ergonomics, you can practice it over and over without harm to your physical (joints, tendons ligaments etc) Ergonomically, it's sound... that means you will be able to do the technique till you master it. That old saying if you can do the technique 10,000 times you will have mastered it. If at 5,000 you have injured yourself through repetition? How deep can you go on the mastery?

IMO the masters of old understood the internalization of the shenfa through serious study, understood that when combined with the practical knowhow one acquired working on it over and over ..
an exaggerated example: You blow out your knee throwing a Question Mark kick ... so what... you just go to the surgeon.. right? its an Awesome kick, But totally modern. How long can you expect to do that kick? I've seen 70 yr olds that because they have thrown a front kick 10000 ergonomically, focused on kinesthetic ergonomics... there isn't much you can do to thwart what they are doing.

you keep starting over, sometimes you won't see what I'm referring to

I think that is an excellent standard for evaluating a martial art to which you want to devote decades of your life. A martial art is not good self defense if training injures you.

That’s one reason I have stuck with Chen Style Taijiquan Practical Method. In my professional opinion, it has perfect biomechanics.

I am sure there are other arts out there with excellent biomechanics.

[Bob]

Mastery is a very tricky and complex construct and of course I've thrown that word around over the years without any solid foundational understanding -

Often times we throw lineage as a proxy or martial prowess as some measure measure of mastery - it's a real can of worms.

Quick example in bajiquan

What was "mastered" in Li Shuwen's early teaching may be quite different on what one "masters" in his latter years with both sets of material being perfectly legitimate - similar arguments can be made along many lines and lineages e.g. Chen Fake's material.

How does one ever know if they have the "complete" set and depth of the material? Kind of like the old economic debates of satisficing versus optimal solutions.

Liu Yunqiao once said when you get to the peak of one mountain there is always another mountain with a higher peak to climb.


Like certification I guess there are some fundamentals you can identify which can be "mastered" but even interpretation of them leads to some very heated arguments

[Kong Bao Long]

For me...
Mastery means you understand your arts curriculum and know how how put the curriculum it into practice.

TCMA and its "Folk" Nature (i.e. "folk" relating to the traditional arts or culture of a community or nation) IMO the mastery of such is usually very in-depth. They encompass areas like (i.e. Nei gong and Metaphysical concepts) that support the main function of the art.

These arts also use their strategy in guidance ( strategies and philosophies that cross over into everyday life ) These TCMA are used as a way a life path.. over decades, the art often become a rasion d'etra.

Prowess, is often seen as Mastery, but is IMO a misnomer. Often what premise of "prowess" really refers to is... a mastery of a certain area.

Recently, we had a thread on "How do you Structure a Class" In all the responses I did not see anyone refer to any curriculum of their art. I was perplexed at this.

Based of the art's curriculum.... if you have mastery, one should have in their head a detailed lesson plan for who he/she is teaching. It should be based on where that person is 'skill and knowledge wise" within the art's curriculum.

That is what I see as mastery.

[windwalker]

When your life depends on something.
You will either have mastered it,
or won’t need to.

[Bob]

When your life depends on something.
You will either have mastered it,
or won’t need to.

Precisely what my elderly gongfu brothers say about "Conceal and Carry" as they march off to the firing range and I decline their offer LOL

[BruceP]

Being that it's supposed to be 'Internal Martial Art', one would think the baseline of any teacher's 'mastery' would be at least a complete understanding of how training and application of an internal martial art's basic empty-hand boxing/fighting method is structured. One might even expect that the teacher would have guided at least one of their trainees to that basic level of 'mastery'. You know, with dantien, Six Harmonies, experience of having rigorously tested the method, and all that other 'internal'...stuff.

How many teachers that actively post here at RSF have that basic level of 'mastery'? I count less than five.

The term 'Internal Martial Art', like it's practices, has come to mean - 'a standard practice of general movement principles that is meaningless these days'.

[BruceP]

TBF.
Hank Hill.

TBF = to be fair

Hank Hill Torso Method = like what you see in a lot of RSFer's vidyahs

You gotta have a developed and connected/coordinated dantien to practice what D Glenn has written about in this thread.

[wayne hansen]

So where does the name Hank Hill come from and how does it explain a way of movement
5 people at a decent level what perceptive of the people on here have you met or seen
I have no idea how many people on here have any skill
It is like origami making a statement on another thread about someone wiping out 99 % of the tai chi community
It is an unproven guesstimating unless he has tried 99% and bettered them

[origami_itto]

It is like origami making a statement on another thread about someone wiping out 99 % of the tai chi community
It is an unproven guesstimating unless he has tried 99% and bettered them

You should read more carefully, because despite appearances I usually write even more carefully, and I stand by it, at this point I've met and touched a couple hundred folks, and even if I can't whoop em, I can gauge how easily they whoop me pretty well.

he would absolutely wipe the floor with 99% of the Taijiquan folks I know in open competition and probably push hands too

I suppose if I clarify "I know, have met, and touched hands with" maybe that makes it a little more believable?

The big differences are in training ethic and experience, which almost none of them have in comparison.

[wayne hansen]

I watched his videos and if he can fight it certainaly does not come from how he does tai chi

[D_Glenn]

Is it Hank Hill from the cartoon King of the Hill??


Which, I think you’re saying is ‘Spine like a Ridge Pole’ and a sternum that’s fully calcified and can’t hinge.

.