Beyond Xing Yi 5 elements

[everything]

piquan has the drilling up before the downward, right? if you can drill up, you can go straight forward. drilling/turning already has inside-out and outside-in. hence piquan is the "mother". yes, i'm mini-obsessed with boiling everything down to the "mother palm" so to speak. it makes sense why Bruce Lee or Wang Xiangzhai wanted to "reduce" to "formlessness" or "void" (to reference a different 5 elements term).

actually Heng is often considered as the mother, but im with the Pi on that.
all the elements has a couple of variations, but with Pi its own variations extends quite clear into the other elements and explored further in the animal shapes.

edit - i see wayne mentioned Heng already.

really interesting. i know little about xingyiquan mostly from reading here, but it's odd that we have a lot of different answers. i thought santishi is the main stance for zhan zhuang, and in a related fashion, pi quan into santishi is kind of the "main thing" to do as part of building that foundation. perhaps that is a common misunderstanding? not sure. i don't understand why they would "hold" the "end" of pi quan, but actually build from heng quan (other than it's a big cycle, which i'm really not into, either). maybe some xingyi folks will explain.

[origami_itto]

piquan has the drilling up before the downward, right? if you can drill up, you can go straight forward. drilling/turning already has inside-out and outside-in. hence piquan is the "mother". yes, i'm mini-obsessed with boiling everything down to the "mother palm" so to speak. it makes sense why Bruce Lee or Wang Xiangzhai wanted to "reduce" to "formlessness" or "void" (to reference a different 5 elements term).

actually Heng is often considered as the mother, but im with the Pi on that.
all the elements has a couple of variations, but with Pi its own variations extends quite clear into the other elements and explored further in the animal shapes.

edit - i see wayne mentioned Heng already.

really interesting. i know little about xingyiquan mostly from reading here, but it's odd that we have a lot of different answers. i thought santishi is the main stance for zhan zhuang, and in a related fashion, pi quan into santishi is kind of the "main thing" to do as part of building that foundation. perhaps that is a common misunderstanding? not sure. i don't understand why they would "hold" the "end" of pi quan, but actually build from heng quan (other than it's a big cycle, which i'm really not into, either). maybe some xingyi folks will explain.

Maybe the real answer here is that there is no one answer. Each could be considered the "mother" in some way with a chief characteristic that is present in the rest to some degree, but in a different aspect. Perhaps martially, perhaps energetically, perhaps directionally, I think it would reward some consideration.

Taijiquan has the yin-yang arrangment of the elements as I believe robert shared earlier, but Xingyi I have always seen represented with the wu xing cycle indicated productive and destructive relationships. No one element is primary or supreme in that arrangement, but each is supported by some and antagonistic to others.

If we're looking at the fundamental training, yes, san ti is the body training to get the base machine, just like I would say tree hugging posture is for Taijiquan.

3 powers, heaven, man, earth - arms, spine, waist/legs. There's also some theory about which meridians are facing up. You build a different shape with santi vs tree hugging, a spear vs a ball.

That training gives you the ability to do xingyiquan or taijiquan movements with a little bit of xyq and tjq in them.

The movements themselves, the 5 elements cover the directions and channels, in taijiquan, the 13, but broken down into 5, 4, 4, so the taiji equivalent to the xingyi 5 elements is basically grasp sparrow's tail or 4 + 5 with the other 4 coming out of deficiencies.

Personally, I do the tree hugging, but in a bow stance, main reason being to assist in seating the pelvis and tailbone properly. It's much more difficult to do in a wuji until it's been properly broken in, and a bow is easier than a cat or heel stance, though all four gets some attention for various reasons.

[Doc Stier]

All of the major Xingyiquan styles open from a Wuji stance to a left side forward Santi stance in both their Five Element Fist exercises and their various Animal Style exercises. They also end in the Santi stance and return to a Wuji stance to complete the exercises.

Among the Five Element forms, Metal Element employs the most similar final shape to the Santi stance, thus establishing this stance as the primary posture for both internal and external standing cultivation practice.

[everything]

thanks, that makes a lot of sense and is what i was roughly guessing.

personally for "5 elements", i cannot remember (yes i can try to look it up) what "element" is what direction, where it's created from, what it destroys etc.. it's like they had this super elegant philosophy based on 1 and 0 then had to overlay the "science" of the "elements" of the time (which is more quickly obsolete). yes if you do the template base moves, it seems clear.

the words are a bit meh for me. a phrase like "roll BACK" or "pull DOWN" seems more clear lol. and people think taijiquan is "abstract".

[johnwang]

When your opponent punches you, you do have options. You can:

- dodge (fire).
- hard block (metal).
- soft block (earth).
- arm wrap (water).
- kick back (wood).

[everything]

When your opponent punches you, you do have options. You can:

- dodge (fire).
- hard block (metal).
- soft block (earth).
- arm wrap (water).
- kick back (wood).

this one makes much more sense to me. although "fire" makes me think you will "fight fire with fire". "dodge" make me think there should be a "wind".

[johnwang]

When your opponent punches you, you do have options. You can:

- dodge (fire).
- hard block (metal).
- soft block (earth).
- arm wrap (water).
- kick back (wood).

this one makes much more sense to me. although "fire" makes me think you will "fight fire with fire". "dodge" make me think there should be a "wind".

To me, fire = speed. You can't catch a fire because it moves very fast. Also, you don't know where fire may come up in next second.

[Kong Bao Long]

Metal - use strike to hurt opponent's punching arm and kicking leg.
Wood - use long range kick/punch to attack.
Water - spin your body when respond to your opponent's attack.
Fire - use quick footwork to move around fast.
Earth - move in like a tank with strong defense.

I don't understand why the Xing Yi system does not include:

- hook punch.
- overhand.
- back fist.
- hammer fist.
- spiral punch.

Of course it does...
Hook punch is within Pao Quan (found within the pivoting of the lead foot when changing direction ) & within Tai Xing
Overhand is within Zhuan Quan (drilling down methodology)
Hammer fist is within Pao Quan i.e. the drop down of the arm warding off & and seen after the throw in white crane spreads wings & all over in Tai Xing
Spiral punch is Everywhere found in Drilling, in Heng Quan, in Beng Quan in Tai Xing, in Yan Xing... everywhere.

Methodology of a Quan fa is fundamental.

In a classical way, Xingyiquan methodology was described to me using a wagon wheel.
At the hub of it all is Santi Shi & Rise, Drill, Overturn, and Fall (the three battle stance, so fundamental in relation to proper footwork, so fundamental in training the proper muscle groups needed for good xingyiquan. Rise, Drill, Overturn, and Fall... internally 10000 uses, a must to be internally learned to a reflex state, for the upper levels of xingyiquan.
Packed around that like a bearing is the Wu Xing The five major force vectors, rolled out in stages ... Mo jin, Yang variations, Yin variations ... teaches strategy, footwork... tactics.. bridging, throws, strikes, kicks, joint locks.. etc .... (A fighting system all to it's own)
Incasing the bearing is the housing LianHuan Quan Incorporating the Wu Xing and introducing some elements of Shi Er xing Lianhuan Quan is purified form, a distillation of an "outer form called " BaShi Quan.

Branching out like spokes on the wheel from Lianhuan Quan are the Shi Er Xing (The Animals ) which bear the weight of Xingyiquan, Shi Er Xing attaches to the rim "Ba Shi Quan & Za Shi Chui.

Finally you have the outer tire, providing the traction... i,e Pan Gen and Ba Zi Gong.

I've been doing Xingyiquan for about 3 decades... worked from the center of the hub.. to the outer tire and back again, multiple times, spending years, at certain points. Without going into a diatribe, which will be lost on most or skewed from ignorance... Most people don't learn the methodology, i.e the pulling from the outer to support the inner... it's why they struggle to make Xingyiquan work.

[origami_itto]

Metal - use strike to hurt opponent's punching arm and kicking leg.
Wood - use long range kick/punch to attack.
Water - spin your body when respond to your opponent's attack.
Fire - use quick footwork to move around fast.
Earth - move in like a tank with strong defense.

I don't understand why the Xing Yi system does not include:

- hook punch.
- overhand.
- back fist.
- hammer fist.
- spiral punch.

Not directly related here, but after Dave Pickens explained belt cracking to me, I bought a belt and have been cracking it while I do my elements.

[edededed]

I don't understand why the Xing Yi system does not include:

- hook punch.
- overhand.
- back fist.
- hammer fist.
- spiral punch.

Not sure I know what these all are, but

- hook punches (like longfist version) is in anshenpao set.
- back fist/hammer fist in xingyi is just piquan with a fist (but oriented like hammerfist, not backfist) - common in Che, Shang styles, less common in others.

Not sure what you mean by "overhand" and "spiral punch." Are these in longfist?

Also, why Xing Yi 5 elements only address punch? Should Xing Yi 5 elements also address kick as well?

Some xingyi schools do have 5 element kicking; unfortunately I haven't seen the whole set myself (it is rare).
I guess we could say that the five elements for kicking could be:

- Pi (axe kick, like in dragon form)
- Beng (straight kick)
- Zuan (inside crescent kick)
- Pao (outside crescent kick)
- Heng (side kick)

Xingyi kicks seem to be generally lower than, say, longfist kicks.

[wayne hansen]

Metal. Axe Kick
Water Raising front kick
Wood. Straight stomp kick
Fire. Outside to inside crescent kick
Earth. Roundhouse kick

[johnwang]

Not sure what you mean by "overhand" and "spiral punch." Are these in longfist?

Overhand - downward hook punch.
Spiral punch - start with hook punch, end with straight punch.

[D_Glenn]

Bagua Li (fire) Trigram Rooster is all about dodging. Like trying to catch a rooster.

Like trying to grab the flame of a candle, all you get is burned.

[origami_itto]

Bagua Li (fire) Trigram Rooster is all about dodging. Like trying to catch a rooster.

Like trying to grab the flame of a candle, all you get is burned.

The xingyi I learned has fire stepping first to the side/corner, then firing towards the opposite corner. That first bit can be a dodge or evasion, or a parry or a pull to get them turned to the side or twisted up or bent over before you strike or knockdown.

[origami_itto]

Metal - use strike to hurt opponent's punching arm and kicking leg.
Wood - use long range kick/punch to attack.
Water - spin your body when respond to your opponent's attack.
Fire - use quick footwork to move around fast.
Earth - move in like a tank with strong defense.

I don't understand why the Xing Yi system does not include:

- hook punch.
- overhand.
- back fist.
- hammer fist.
- spiral punch.
- ...

Is it because 5 is the magic number? Anything that's more than 5 cannot be supported by the 5 elements theory?

Also, why Xing Yi 5 elements only address punch? Should Xing Yi 5 elements also address kick as well?

- Pi Quan can be used to counter Beng Quan. Inside crescent kick can be used to counter front kick.
- Pi Quan can easily change into Zuan Quan. Hook kick can easily change into roundhouse kick.
- ...

What's your opinion on this?

I just found this clip of Wai Lun Choi demonstrating the 5 Element Linking form and then... a bunch of applications including kicks.