what is the "mother palm" or the santi zhan zhuang of taiji

[twocircles13]

Richard,

Indeed, they are movements, not postures... so let's look at movements...
...

This presents some anecdotal evidence for both goose and crane having been there originally in Yang, but because YCF only has a crane version left it looks like a different lineage to goose, but this may be a false impression. It could be that Yang Cheng Fu himself took out the 'goose' part. That's another theory.

Anyway, more grist for the mill.

That’s interesting.

Here’s some more grist from a Chen taijiquan perspective.

Lei Muni. one of Chen Fake’s later students. White Crane Spreads its Wings starts at 0:38-0:42 and the related Crane-like sequences go until about 1:25 or 1:35 depending where you want to stop.



This is Chen Boxing, student of Chen Liqing, who was instrumental in saving small-frame Chen Taijiquan. White Goose Spreads its Wings start at about 0:31-0:37 and related movements to about 0:59.



To add some spice, this is Du Yuze who was a student of Chen Yanxi, Chen Fake’s father. However, Chen Yanxi was quite old, and after a few years when Du’s family left the area, Yanxi recommended his nephew, "Chen Ming-biao, to be his bodyguard and the family's personal boxing teacher. Chen Ming-biao was an expert in archery, the spear and other aspects of the martial arts, including the Lao Jia (Old Form) Chen Family Taiji and Paochui (Cannon Fist)." He also taught Du the Sudden Thunder style, which though related to small-frame was not strictly a Chen family form. (not shown) White Crane Spreads its Wings and related moves is about 0:52-1:00 and related moves to 1:23.



I saw and article where the Chen Village Large Frame group is trying to revert from White Crane to White Goose for the movement name. It said, “There are no cranes in the Chen Village, but there are lots of geese.” This is anecdotal that the name and possibly the movement was changed in the branch of the family that spent much of their time outside of the village.

[GrahamB]

I don’t think you’d find many cranes in Beijing either.

Odd they’d have a problem with cranes in the village when there are presumably no apes or monkeys or dragons in the village either…

[Steve James]

Do the different names apply to different applications? Or are they different names for the same thing/s?

[everything]

i'm mainly describing the feeling, but i need more "internal bodybuilding" to "lock it in"

the posture i refer to has - rooting/floating, light/heavy, sinking/raising, pulling/pushing.....All you need is your body and mind........ And a teacher who face to face teach you

Best is that you keep practicing the stuff you actually learned from teachers face to face . I believe you actually learned from Ben Lo ? focus on that till you meet another teacher of that level.

I only had some brief interaction/instruction with Ben Lo even though some of it was actually up close at my parents' house. My dad went to learn from him and hosted him more extensively, so I also got to see these "physics" guys try to learn. Of course as "physics" guys, they couldn't explain what was happening. What Ben told us was pretty old school. Do a shit ton of "ben(d) lo(w)" standing. Do a shit ton of form. Fang song a shit ton more/better. People who have learned and people who've looked harder for a few more tips but still couldn't "get it" have told me certain tips that actually work ime. What you say makes some tangible sense to me. Without going into woo-woo detail, the "spheres" take some warm up and work, are not quite "instant on", but slowly over a long time, I "get stronger". Then there is some weird shit going on. I believe it is "correct" weird shit.

[robert]

The history of the use of White Crane is more problematic.

The other teacher, Chen Changxing, retired from his caravan escorting business and taught a couple of family members and Yang Luchan. However, Changxing’s son, Gengyun, was taught primarily by Youben. Gengyun’s son, Yanxi was likely taught initially by Changxing and others while his father was away. Yanxi’s son, Chen Fake, famously initially studied with his uncle’s, probably Chen Dengke, Chen Zhaopi’s father, and others, so the lineages are not as clear. Of these, Yang Luchan, Yanxi’s student, Du Yuzi; and all of Chen Fake’s students used White Crane.

TLDR, So, what’s the big deal? Bái hè versus Bái é, if it were just pronunciation or the symbolism of cranes versus geese, meh. However, at least 80% of the form differences between Chen Small-frame and Large frame are in crane and associated movement versus a goose and associated move.

Above you write all of Chen Fake’s students used White Crane, but this isn't true. I learned Chen's yilu through the CZP line and was taught the name of the posture as bai e liang chi, white goose shows its wings. CZP learned from his father but completed his studies with Chen Fake. The name that CZP used is documented in his manual - 白鵝亮翅, bai e liang chi, white goose shows its wings. I don't think the name is too important. What I've heard is that Chen Fake initially learned from his grandmother.

[robert]

Here’s some more grist from a Chen taijiquan perspective.

To add some spice, this is Du Yuze who was a student of Chen Yanxi, Chen Fake’s father.

Here's another Chen Yanxi lineage. This is Wang Changjiang, grandson of Wang Yan. It's interesting that jingong daodui is missing after danbian and white goose/crane is cursory. 0:59 - 1:01. The second is a little clearer at 1:51 - 1:54.

This is Chen Boxing, student of Chen Liqing, who was instrumental in saving small-frame Chen Taijiquan.

Here's a video of Chen Peishan doing xiaojia. He's Chen Liqing's nephew. His form is very clear. White goose/crane: 1:15 - 1:24. What's interesting here is the transition from 1:24 - 1:26.



There's a lot of variation in Chen taijiquan.

[Trick]

cranes in the village - althogh they are endangered, the oriental whilte stork comes in hundreds each winter season to stay in henan province.
take some peaks at the beaks outside the villagenoses.

[Trick]

i'm mainly describing the feeling, but i need more "internal bodybuilding" to "lock it in"

the posture i refer to has - rooting/floating, light/heavy, sinking/raising, pulling/pushing.....All you need is your body and mind........ And a teacher who face to face teach you

Best is that you keep practicing the stuff you actually learned from teachers face to face . I believe you actually learned from Ben Lo ? focus on that till you meet another teacher of that level.

I only had some brief interaction/instruction with Ben Lo even though some of it was actually up close at my parents' house. My dad went to learn from him and hosted him more extensively, so I also got to see these "physics" guys try to learn. Of course as "physics" guys, they couldn't explain what was happening. What Ben told us was pretty old school. Do a shit ton of "ben(d) lo(w)" standing. Do a shit ton of form. Fang song a shit ton more/better. People who have learned and people who've looked harder for a few more tips but still couldn't "get it" have told me certain tips that actually work ime. What you say makes some tangible sense to me. Without going into woo-woo detail, the "spheres" take some warm up and work, are not quite "instant on", but slowly over a long time, I "get stronger". Then there is some weird shit going on. I believe it is "correct" weird shit.

the sphere is not some kind of a goal you should feel for you self, throw away/let go of such feelings, they turn into navel-gazing.
visualizations are tools for practice, they are ”objects” to interact with not musing on the inner self.
The tree works very well with upp/down, then there are four more directions. with the 6 in balance one is centered and can sense and express with ones environment in all directions（sphere）
till then - bend low, do the form, relax as you actually was taught......and throw away limitations such as Messi, Fedor and Yang Luchan.

[everything]

Indeed the “spheres” are not objects or visualizations or metaphors or navel gazing.

They are more like you say. It’s too hard to talk about as it will sound like woo.

This is why it’s easier to say partly tongue in cheek to hold the beach ball and be the yoga ball. The yoga ball always has peng and always has Lu. This is all we need.

[twocircles13]

The history of the use of White Crane is more problematic.

The other teacher, Chen Changxing, retired from his caravan escorting business and taught a couple of family members and Yang Luchan. However, Changxing’s son, Gengyun, was taught primarily by Youben. Gengyun’s son, Yanxi was likely taught initially by Changxing and others while his father was away. Yanxi’s son, Chen Fake, famously initially studied with his uncle’s, probably Chen Dengke, Chen Zhaopi’s father, and others, so the lineages are not as clear. Of these, Yang Luchan, Yanxi’s student, Du Yuzi; and all of Chen Fake’s students used White Crane.

TLDR, So, what’s the big deal? Bái hè versus Bái é, if it were just pronunciation or the symbolism of cranes versus geese, meh. However, at least 80% of the form differences between Chen Small-frame and Large frame are in crane and associated movement versus a goose and associated move.

Above you write all of Chen Fake’s students used White Crane, but this isn't true. I learned Chen's yilu through the CZP line and was taught the name of the posture as bai e liang chi, white goose shows its wings. CZP learned from his father but completed his studies with Chen Fake. The name that CZP used is documented in his manual - 白鵝亮翅, bai e liang chi, white goose shows its wings. I don't think the name is too important. What I've heard is that Chen Fake initially learned from his grandmother.

Thanks for the correction Robert. This has caused me to recheck my form name lists, and now I am double checking my form name sources to make sure that are not further errors.

In those lists, Chen Zhaopei used White Goose Spreads its Wings in his book that Brennan has translated. This could be explained by his also having studied theory with Chen Xin, a small-frame practitioner. He also learned from his father, as you point out, and Chen Yanxi and finally Chen Fake.

I have never heard that Chen Fake initially learned from his grandmother. He told Hong Junsheng that he learned from his “uncles,” which is kind of a generic relationship term. He also says that was classmates with his “cousins,” another generic relationship term. I’m not sure where or when his grandmother would have fit in there, but I guess anything is possible.

Although there was a prohibition on teaching women the fist forms at this time, but this might only apply to unmarried women and not to wives. Or Chen Fake’s grandmother could have learned fist forms before the prohibition.

[robert]

Thanks for the correction Robert.

NP

I have never heard that Chen Fake initially learned from his grandmother. He told Hong Junsheng that he learned from his “uncles,” which is kind of a generic relationship term. He also says that was classmates with his “cousins,” another generic relationship term. I’m not sure where or when his grandmother would have fit in there, but I guess anything is possible.

Although there was a prohibition on teaching women the fist forms at this time, but this might only apply to unmarried women and not to wives. Or Chen Fake’s grandmother could have learned fist forms before the prohibition.

There's a book about CFK's life, there's no training advice or technical info, and IIRC the publisher didn't try to verify the information. It's just one more story.

https://www.amazon.com/Chen-Fake-Rediscovered-Biography-Taiji-Master/dp/B09WPZBVX2

I've heard the stories of CFK training with his cousin, but what I've read didn't give details. Were they studying together or doing push hands and applications together? In the village I can imagine kids studying in their family and pushing hands and practicing applications with cousins and friends as well. And people study with different people. So, people learn the basics from a family member, but complete their studies with someone else. Chen Zhaopei learned from his father Chen Dengke, but also studied with Chen Yanxi and Chen Fake; Chen Qingzhou learned from his father, Chen Wufang, but completed his studies with Chen Zhaopei when he returned to the village, and so on.

I've read about the prohibition against women learning taiji in the village, but don't know the details and I've read conflicting information. Chen Ziming writes about Chen Sen learning from Chen Zichun’s great granddaughter, Shuzhen in his taiji manual. Chen Sen is listed just above Chen Xin so I'm guessing Chen Sen lived around the time of Chen Xin. When I get together with my teacher I'm interested in learning taiji so I usually don't ask many questions about family and society and so on.

[Bob]

[

This is Chen Boxing, student of Chen Liqing, who was instrumental in saving small-frame Chen Taijiquan.

Here's a video of Chen Peishan doing xiaojia. He's Chen Liqing's nephew. His form is very clear. White goose/crane: 1:15 - 1:24. What's interesting here is the transition from 1:24 - 1:26.



There's a lot of variation in Chen taijiquan.[/quote]


Even within blood families there is substantial variation in Chen taijiquan, I believe that Chen Peishan is related to PeiJu - but I could be wrong - I have Chen Peishan's VHS tape somewhere in my collection - I think he was in Japan when the tape was made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh3afQsRoEg

hen Xiaojia Taijiquan Yi-lu w/Chen PeiJu



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlczH0A_ruI

Chen Liqing Chen Style Tai Chi Small Form 1985 Nippon Budokan

[wayne hansen]

When people were talking about not teaching women the one above came straight to mind

[Steve James]

When people were talking about not teaching women the one above came straight to mind

Hmm, do you think that would be a specific Chen thing? In 1928, Sun LT's daughter taught (women's classes) at the Nanjing Academy. Wu Jianquan's daughter was used as the model for his form, though Ma Yueh Liang became the head of that part of the family.

So, in general, it's normal that ordinary women wouldn't have access to martial arts. But I'm not sure why that would be true for the daughters and female members of martial families. Is there a particular reason that wouldn't have been true of the Chen family?

[Bob]

I don't know what to say or think LOL

Comment:


@torretaichichuan7476
5 years ago
Thanks so much for this. This is the only footage of Chen Yuxia I've seen so far (and I like it very much). From things I glean here and there I am starting to believe Chen Yuxia played a bigger role in the transmission than generally recognized. I practice Chen Style, the Hong Junsheng variant and I understand Chen Yuxia and Hong Junsheng maintained a close, good relationship (and I see many common things...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXSKU8k ... MoHlN439eS

Chenfake late disciple (陈发科晚年入室弟子)70年代尾录像
This video was taken in the late 70s in Beijing. By that time it is not easy to have a video recorder..