what is the "mother palm" or the santi zhan zhuang of taiji

[Bhassler]

I don't know what to say or think LOL

Comment:


@torretaichichuan7476
5 years ago
Thanks so much for this. This is the only footage of Chen Yuxia I've seen so far (and I like it very much). From things I glean here and there I am starting to believe Chen Yuxia played a bigger role in the transmission than generally recognized. I practice Chen Style, the Hong Junsheng variant and I understand Chen Yuxia and Hong Junsheng maintained a close, good relationship (and I see many common things...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXSKU8k ... MoHlN439eS

Chenfake late disciple (陈发科晚年入室弟子)70年代尾录像
This video was taken in the late 70s in Beijing. By that time it is not easy to have a video recorder..

That is not Chen Yuxia (daughter of Chen Fake). I heard that it was Jin Yilin, who studied with CFK’s boxing academy as a child under Chen Zhaoxu and Chen Yuxia, but that claim was contested, as well, although it remains the most credible I've seen.

As I was told, the prohibition against teaching women was due to the fact that if a woman married into another family, she would go there and take the village gongfu with her. However, given the dissemination and prevalence of practice in the village, and the fact that kids were doing it, with kids being kids it would have been impossible to keep young girls from picking up on stuff just by exposure. So if there is any truth to the story, it would likely just be that certain "secrets" or favorite tricks that were taught later on to favored students would have been withheld from young women so as not to give up any perceived advantages.

As for the biography, it's sketchy to say the least. When I asked the author and publisher directly about the source of the material, I was studiously ignored. Buyer beware.

[wayne hansen]

Just think of Japan and the naginata the only Japanese weapon I have studied and would love to study more
Taught to samurai women to protect the home
I think China would have been similar

[Bhassler]

Just think of Japan and the naginata the only Japanese weapon I have studied and would love to study more
Taught to samurai women to protect the home
I think China would have been similar

China is a big place with a lot of ethnic diversity. It seems kind of silly to assume that it would all be the same even within China, let alone based on how things work somewhere else.

[wayne hansen]

I think it is silly to think they didn’t teach their women when there is video evidence of quite skilful women doing the forms at a high level
Like the Samurai the Chen were said to leave the village on escort duty
Just makes sence to have the homebodies trained to some degree
Just look at grannie in black throw that fargin
That is not a skill picked up without a lot of training
I saw that clip in the 70,s
She looks to be in her 80’s
So she most likely started training around 1900

[Bao]

I think it is silly to think they didn’t teach their women

Agreed. And it's wrong. From my understanding, in real martial arts families everyone trained different stuff. Often people in big mansions or typical siheyuan where big families lived together and had to rely on themselves for protection. My late Chinese teacher was born in a typical "martial arts family". He used to tell stories about his family members, including his aunts and grandmother, how they trained, what they could do.

[Trick]

hmm, China/women/martial-”arts”.
There are some historical female kick-ass warriors in Chinas history, however some were outlaws, some seem had to dress as men to join battles
And also some martial-arts system are said created by women - Yong Chun quan, Bai He quan, as examples.
However, i can ”see” that there could have been a rule against women study pugilism back then. After the Qing fall, the big cities began flourish in modernity, the year 1928 was mentioned in the thread, Shanghai was swinging and glorious...but how was the Chen village back then, i dont know but i imagin quite backward ?
But even still in the big cities Chinese-opera was still all men, the female parts in opera was considered too vigorous and demanding for girls to play especially the female warrior part.

[Trick]

Addingly.

Japan was mentioned. On Okinawa, martial arts was basically an only male practice, however some of the islands traditional dances contained/（hid）methods similar to 'Tode'（Karate）for the ladies to sharpen their ”judo”-chop

[Steve James]

Onna-Musha c 1800

[Steve James]

Imo, the idea that only men fight/fought or learned self-defense is a cultural belief that has nothing to do with reality or fact. I would say that it's western, except that women warriors are found throughout European history. Even today, there are Ukrainian women snipers. Israel has female soldiers. Khadafi was famous for his "Amazon Guards."

It is probably true, however, that men and women would not "compete" in hand-to-hand martial sports against each other. Physical equality wasn't in question. Then again, that's why our modern combat sports have weight divisions. And, as pointed out, weapons are great equalizers.

Weapons in the hands of women remind me of the Dahomean "Amazons" and a scene in one of Shakespeare's historical plays. (One of the Henrys, but I forget). Anyway, the point was that after the battle, the English women came down to wound those enemies still living "in the thigh." It was Shakespeare's genteel way of describing how women would cut femoral arteries while castrating.

Isn't there a legend that wing chun was developed by a nun?

[taiwandeutscher]

FYI: Chen Peiju (in Zhengzhou) is the younger sister of Chen Peishan (architect/prof in Japan). He has an older brother, Chen Peilin, also does small frame Chen TJQ, and is an official in Sanmenxia/Henan.

[windwalker]

weapons are great equalizers.

Only in the hands of those of unequal physical attributes, with those of less skill and greater physical attributes.

All things being equal the physicality adds even more to the lethality of the weapon used. Not less..

There have been numerous studies of women in combat front line units.
None of them have recommended this as an advantage.

Normally not something that most armies would do, unless they are forced to do as what's happening in Ukraine.

There is no study that indicates that training can overcome the large physical differences between men and women. Additionally, training women to perform heavy work jobs
increases dramatically the skeletal-muscular injury rate among women which is already far greater than men. Attempting to train women with men will require either training men less well or accepting a high attrition rate among the very few women who will meet the
nominal qualifications for heavy work jobs."

[Steve James]

Sorry, like I said, a women with a rifle is just as lethal as any male. Afa as swords, I'd have to disagree. A bigger guy with a heavier sword is not guaranteed to win against a smaller person with a weapon. There's a famous Japanese woman samurai, Tomoe Nagoe, who's reported to have killed many men.

Afa studies and necessity, I think I said that the reasons women have fought is necessity. Russian/Soviet women have done it, but so have women from every other part of the world. It's easy to find in history.

Professional armies in Europe/Asia are a special case. The men were the fighters and the women followed the camps. The Roman legions, for ex, were all male. However, when they attacked the European tribes, their women had to fight. Some, like, Boudica and Fredegund, even led. They weren't stronger than men, and they weren't successful against professional armies. That wasn't the point.

The point is that, whether males like it or not, females have fought just as hard and bravely as men. Yep, give 'em a gun, I didn't say join the Marines. Btw, my son and daughter-in-law are military. They're not equal. They have different jobs, but she can handle a rifle.

[windwalker]

-. They have different jobs, but she can handle a rifle.

As posted no studies done to date indicate this is a good idea nor add to combat effectiveness for many different reasons.
As noted only done when necessity forces it to be done..

The US and its allies expect Kiev to refill the depleted ranks with teenagers, the elderly, and women

Respect for your offspring in the military.
For those not having served they may not really understand the nature of the military...

All humans are born with the ability kill each other no training or special skill set needed to teach this.

[origami_itto]

Yes the training is less about how to kill and more about how to do what you're told and work with others. It's not glorious.

[Steve James]

Citing studies is fine. No one's arguing that women "should" go into combat. The question I responded to was that women have done, so it's not a question of whether they can. Yes, it's obvious that any human who can pull a trigger can kill another human being. Women are humans.

Women who happen to be in combat, A-10 pilots, for ex., write their last letters just like everyone else. They sign to give their lives. They don't have to be physically equal to men to do that.

Anyway, back to martial arts, why we're looking for the "mother" palm is interesting. And, at any rate, we know that women have been trained, historically, despite any cultural proscriptions. That's just the fact. It's certainly true today.