what is the "mother palm" or the santi zhan zhuang of taiji

[everything]

what is the "mother palm" or the santi zhan zhuang of taijiquan?

we can say the quality is peng jin, but (afaik) there isn't a "hold santishi" kind of "key" that everyone says... or maybe they do and i somehow didn't hear

[origami_itto]

Yang Cheng Fu called Grasp sparrow's tail the chief hand

[Trick]

Taijiquan is round/sphere, as front so to the back and to the sides, at same time, equal amount.

http://cn.bing.com/images/search?q=yang ... ORM=HDRSC2

http://cn.bing.com/images/search?q=yang ... ORM=HDRSC2

damn, i wanted to post the first pick of the YCF form chart, and anothe of a sitting on a park bench YCF, feel free to scroll the links

[BruceP]

Any of the forms' postures can open the door to developing strong tjq.

It's best to start with one you like, or one that feels natural

[wayne hansen]

YCF held single whip for expanding energy
Lift hands for contracting energy
Backfist parry punch for advancing
Repulse Monkey for retreating

That’s a pretty good start

YCF may have said it was all ward off but
CMC said it was roll back

[everything]

if we say there are only 4 main energies, it makes sense it's grasp sparrow's tail. i guess this is what they say. but it boils down further, esp if i want to be stubborn about the idea, to peng/lu. yang/yin. to me, yang style cloud hands puts peng (containing lu) becomes lu (containing peng) on repeat like the taiji diagram. you have up and expand, roll back and down, cycling. so to do what bruce said (start with one that feels natural), i'd start with this one. then everything else, which all comes from the "mother" yin/yang.

[Appledog]

It's an interesting question but you must be prepared for the answer that there isn't one.

That being said, I have been taught several "fundamental sets".

The nine this, the eight this, four of this, four of that, five of this, six of that. the eight plus three, etc.

These sets seem to suggest that the eight basic moves are practiced first in wuji stance and then later with stepping. Thus there is no fundamental stance other than to maintain central equilibrium in and out of (during) the 'stance'. Using single whip is the biggest endorsement of 'settling' you will find in Taijiquan, and the first place it is taught, if anywhere else. And why! If you read between the lines, like in the story of liu musan. Secondly (another way to look at it) is the idea within taiji separate to xingyi etc. is that wuji is for health and taiji/taiyi is for martial. Meaning, that the end position of single leg stances is the yin yang transition, which makes sense given taiji theory.

Thus for all intents and purposes you will need to practice wuji stance and the eight gates in wuji, then forward/backward stance, then with various stepping. Since this then becomes the form you will look at the eight fundamental movements in wuji as the "mother palms", with wuji itself being the supermother (father?) "palm". Now, what you really want is a posture which holds your arms up. But you also want one which is consistant with a common tai chi move. So single whip is a good one. There are reasons why single whip in particular is chosen for standing, one major reason is that it is basically the first application taught in push hands that comes from a form move. That is why it always appears after grasp bird's tail.

So basically, start with wuji, then practice the basic elements of grasp bird's tail, then practice grasp bird's tail, then progress to the corner moves starting with single whip. Beyond that, I have been taught special standing exercises for raise hands, and a few others, but who has the time for all this stuff these days



p.s. with extremely few exceptions (lou xi ao bu etc) if you use a posture not found in the first quarter of the form your probably doing it wrong. I will let the cat out of the bag this once, if you are hugging trees you are not doing tai chi, that isn't a tai chi posture. Teaching is another matter but as for "mother palms" in the sense that all CMA are based around the same fundamental structure of design elements, that isn't a design element found in tai chi is it (for example). So then why! do people do it

Because they're desperate don't know any better.

[everything]

wuji as "it" has a good argument. but it's "taijiquan" not "wujiquan". we could say we "reduce" to yiquan, which has a sort of "hugging trees". "hugging trees" is for neigong. you can do neigong and not do taiji but you cannot do taiji without neigong. it's like the yoga ball that isn't filled. it won't have the always on peng and lu and its "power" to "throw you out". you can try to "force" the deflated yoga ball to fit all our weird "external" ideas and "mechanics" but it will never work.

[GrahamB]

I believe that, traditionally, one would observe a snake fighting a crane and have deep philosophical insights about it. From that, everything will become clear.

This is the way.

[everything]

I believe that, traditionally, one would observe a snake fighting a crane and have deep philosophical insights about it. From that, everything will become clear.

This is the way.

This is the way.

I am getting a little boa constrictor (royce gracie) and stand on one leg style (ralph macchio) as my insight.

[Bao]

what is the "mother palm"

"Lazily tying the coat" / "grasping the sparrows tail / "peng ji lü an"

or the santi zhan zhuang of taijiquan?

Wuiji or tree embracing posture depending on school. Wuji should be the most fundamental zhan zhuang for most schools and styles. Starting in a Yang tradition, I have always done a bit wuji standing before going into the form. Sun Lutang taught that you should stand in wu ji 20 minutes before practicing the form.

we can say the quality is peng jin

Depends on who you ask. I would say the fundamental state should be emptiness.

[everything]

As I was commenting on the other thread, I can see why Bruce Lee or Wang Xiangzhai would say we should really go toward formlessness.

Not that I've done enough "addition" to be able to work on "subtraction", but I like the 80/20 in general for everyone.

[Giles]

Or Cloud Hands / yun shou. There's expansion and becoming empty, peng and lu, simultaneously left/right and right/left. The expansion is quite explicit, the moment of becoming empty less explicit but also important. You can step with it in any direction, even spin on your axis.
Start advancing with it, it can easily morph into Step Up, Parry, Punch or Fair Lady or Fan Through Back. Reverse the movement itself and start stepping back, it can easily morph into Repel Monkey. Do a 3-step with it and it can turn into a Tai Sabaki (aikido).

This isn't the 'right' answer, the other answers are not wrong. It's an answer.

[everything]

agree with your idea. yang turns to yin and vice versa in an endless (however long you want) cycle.

on a tangent, if it were an "IMA mother palm" (for neigong), the core seems to be:
- xingyiquan santishi
- yiquan combat ("hug tree" like) stance
- taijiquan cloud hands
- baguazhang mother palms.

so you can just incorporate the first 3 in your mother palm walk and have "one thing" well "8 things".

[origami_itto]

As I was commenting on the other thread, I can see why Bruce Lee or Wang Xiangzhai would say we should really go toward formlessness.

What is formlessness?
Everything has a form. Formlessness is as meaningless as stancelessness. You will stand, you will form a shape.

I think the real think is patternlessness. The sequence of shifting forms has to adapt.

Like there are slime molds that can solve mazes to get to nutrients. They just grow through the maze to the nute by adapting to the sense data that drives them to the nutes. They don't just use a set pattern of growth because that would mean simply expanding from the center until they found nutrients and then collapsing around that base, they intelligently grow in a direction based on input until they get to the nutrients and spread out from there.

I just want to do anything but work today apparently.