what is the "mother palm" or the santi zhan zhuang of taiji

[Trick]

Onna-Musha c 1800

it took an empress to establish, if there can be an empress there can be warrioresses too.

[Trick]

weapons are great equalizers.

Only in the hands of those of unequal physical attributes, with those of less skill and greater physical attributes.

All things being equal the physicality adds even more to the lethality of the weapon used. Not less..

There have been numerous studies of women in combat front line units.
None of them have recommended this as an advantage.

Normally not something that most armies would do, unless they are forced to do as what's happening in Ukraine.

There is no study that indicates that training can overcome the large physical differences between men and women. Additionally, training women to perform heavy work jobs
increases dramatically the skeletal-muscular injury rate among women which is already far greater than men. Attempting to train women with men will require either training men less well or accepting a high attrition rate among the very few women who will meet the
nominal qualifications for heavy work jobs."

pain tolerance/threshold could be an issue, and women has a lower such - https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... intensely/

[Trick]

Also in China, foot binding prevaild into modern times, especially in the rural parts - fair lady still worked the shuttle in the rurals of China.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ ... nd-beauty/

[windwalker]

Also in China, foot binding prevaild into modern times, especially in the rural parts - fair lady still worked the shuttle in the rurals of China.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ ... nd-beauty/

in other cultures even in todays time FGM " female genital mutilation " is practiced...

While there is history of women in different combative roles,
as a rule it's not something that most cultures do or endorse for obvious reasons, later proven by scientific studies...

Don't really understand the discussion focus, considering the role of what some label as "transgender" now influencing women sporting events in the west....

Or how it has anything to do with the topic.....

[windwalker]

“It was clear that the women we spoke with believed the purpose was marriage,” Brown said. “And I think that’s probably what their mothers believed as well.

Mothers bound their daughters’ feet because they thought it would help their daughters have a better marriage … which meant they’d be able to eat regularly.”

The evidence, however, suggested otherwise.

says the white women...not of the culture

[wayne hansen]

I think he was pointing out it might restrict their stepping

[twocircles13]

Wow, thanks for taking an off-hand comment and making a major discussion out of it. I guess this thread is about the “mother palm”.

The Chen family historically taught their girls and women taijiquan. That was the problem. One of the daughters in the family by arranged marriage was forced to marry a man to whom she objected. IIRC, he was a bully. She refused to marry him but her family forced her. When he started to get physical with her she beat him up very badly. His family returned her to the Chen family in disgrace. It was such a source of shame and loss of face for the family that they prohibited teaching any of their daughters from that time forward.

This prohibition was only within the Chen family and it was only teaching them to fist fight not weapons.

If I knew when this occurred, I do not remember exactly when. It may have been n the late 1800s. By the 1900s, it seems to have been relaxed, because Chen Liqing was taught by her father and uncle.

Chen Fake taught his daughter the Jian first. Because of her excellence, Hong Junsheng had her come to Jinan and teach his students.

[Trick]

Also in China, foot binding prevaild into modern times, especially in the rural parts - fair lady still worked the shuttle in the rurals of China.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ ... nd-beauty/

While there is history of women in different combative roles,
as a rule it's not something that most cultures do or endorse for obvious reasons, later proven by scientific studies...

Don't really understand the discussion focus, considering the role of what some label as "transgender" now influencing women sporting events in the west....

Or how it has anything to do with the topic.....

maybe it was all the talk about birds, or that speculation that Chen Fake learned from his granny.
So i just came to think -“foot binding” - something that was a thing in Chinafor a long time, and as my link point out it was going on well into modern times in the rurals of China, could the Chen village be considered rural ? if so, maybe the grandmothers there followed the tradition of binding the feet thus making it impossible（？）to do any quan-fa.
however the Chen family seemigly was and still might be the dominating force in the village, maybe their girls was exempted from the rule ?

[windwalker]

A long while back in Tianjin.

Was pushing with a young man there, chen style...he was thrown out..
An older woman stepped in and started to push

She told him in Chinese "no not like that, like this". as I found my self being thrown out..
Not really understanding Chinese, I would later find out it was his "mother"

It was funny, way to go mom

As you know, others might, China had/has culturally different ideas about the roles of men and women.
each respected understood within the culture.

Historically there were exceptions..
in general not the norm.

While having culturally defined roles , it did not prevent those within the culture from doing what they wanted to do privately.




"Grandmaster Gini Lau proudly carries on the tradition of her famous father, Great Grandmaster Lau Fat Mang as head of the Lau Fat Mang World Eagle Claw Association. Much like her father, Gini Lau has carved out her own unique history and legacy in the Martial Arts World."

Was 18 when I first saw her doing a sword demo at a local tournament she is very good...

[Steve James]

I think he was pointing out it might restrict their stepping

My Taiwanese teacher used to say that foot binding and narrow dresses made it impossible for women to run away. It does suggest why a woman could be considered virtually useless, except for home and son-making. He suggested that the national emphasis on physical culture (for all) started because of conflict with the Japanese. The rape of Nanking being attributed to the people being weak.

Hey, in the US, high heels make a woman's legs shapely, but it's crazy to watch them try to run in Manolo Blahniks. That's why so many keep ballet slippers or sneakers in their bags.

This discussion has made me wonder why the legend of Mulan has lasted so long.

[Steve James]

Hmm, because it's been mentioned, I wondered about the Chinese military. I looked for a study.

According to a 2021 report by the Global Times, there are over 1.2 million women serving in the Chinese military. This represents about 14% of the total active-duty force. Women make up a significant portion of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) and are involved in all branches of the service, including the army, navy, air force, and strategic missile force.

The PLA has been actively recruiting women for decades, and their numbers have been steadily increasing. Women are now serving in a wide range of roles, from combat positions to technical and administrative positions. The PLA has also made efforts to improve the living and working conditions for female soldiers, and they now have access to the same training and opportunities as their male counterparts.

The increasing number of women in the Chinese military is a reflection of the country's changing social and economic landscape. As China has become more developed, women have gained greater access to education and employment opportunities. This has led to a more gender-equal society, and this is reflected in the PLA.

The PLA's efforts to recruit and retain female soldiers are paying off. Women are making significant contributions to the PLA, and they are an important part of the force's future.

[Trick]

Hmm, because it's been mentioned, I wondered about the Chinese military. I looked for a study.

According to a 2021 report by the Global Times, there are over 1.2 million women serving in the Chinese military. This represents about 14% of the total active-duty force. Women make up a significant portion of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) and are involved in all branches of the service, including the army, navy, air force, and strategic missile force.

The PLA has been actively recruiting women for decades, and their numbers have been steadily increasing. Women are now serving in a wide range of roles, from combat positions to technical and administrative positions. The PLA has also made efforts to improve the living and working conditions for female soldiers, and they now have access to the same training and opportunities as their male counterparts.

The increasing number of women in the Chinese military is a reflection of the country's changing social and economic landscape. As China has become more developed, women have gained greater access to education and employment opportunities. This has led to a more gender-equal society, and this is reflected in the PLA.

The PLA's efforts to recruit and retain female soldiers are paying off. Women are making significant contributions to the PLA, and they are an important part of the force's future.

yes, it was in 1949 with the CCP took control, things like foot binding were officially forbidden and women and men was to be seen as equals.
However, many girls still are bound by traditional customs, still today on individual levels amongs the older generation there can be views that girls should go on get married quite soon - 20 and not married, the grandmothers get stressed and worries it might be the end of their line, and that their neighbors will gossip about that bad situation.

[Steve James]

On any Chinese sci-fi or modern military movie, there are women in leadership positions -often as the main heroes. Of course, when it comes to martial art movies, at least from the 80s onward, there were no shortage of female stars. The US, otoh, has had very few culturally recognized female leaders/warriors. The first woman we saw kick but was Honore Blackman in the 60s "Avengers" from UK tv. Then came Diana Rigg, (but Blackman actually learned judo).

China seems well ahead of the US in this regard. Maybe it's because of traditions like foot binding which disabled 50% of the population. When I was growing up, there were horror stories about Chinese families aborting female fetuses because males were more valuable. This was said to be especially true in rural areas. Someone with bound feet, I wouldn't imagine be much good working in the fields. So, perhaps, necessity, not sympathy, was the motivation. And, the same applies to warfare/martial arts.

The story about Sun Tzu and the concubines is a good illustration. The premise of the Sunzi is that the study of war is necessary for the protection of the state. When asked whether farmers could be molded into an army, Sun said he could even turn the king's concubines into leaders and soldiers. Ultimately, the lesson was that it wasn't that hard, if they took it seriously.