what is the "mother palm" or the santi zhan zhuang of taiji

[everything]

interesting points. will try to work on this sphere.

i've been told that's the one shape before. I think from someone who heard from Henry Look, student of Master Kuo. on a tangent, this interview is interesting.
https://www.hsing-i.com/henry-look-interview

[GrahamB]

Richard -

I've heard you talk of the split between goose and crane before, but the idea of two lineages in Chen village that can be traced by a goose or a crane used in the form is a new and fascinating possibility to me. The two lineages theory is older of course.

Also the idea that the first x postures represent the snake and the next x postures represent the crane, is a new one for me, but also a real possibility. Like you say, SPP has opened up the idea of the form as story telling vehicle to the wider Tai Chi world already... and that theory does fit with the way the forms are done - the opening moves have more of a snake, coiling quality, and the later crane/goose moves are followed by raise arms and brush knee, which are all very wing-like... however, it's also possible we are letting our imagination do a lot of the heavy lifting there...

I wonder how other styles of Tai Chi fit into that theory though... for instance, the "White Crane" posture in Wu style (Wu Jianquan), which would be a crane lineage in your theory, looks like both the "goose" posture of small frame and the "crane" postures - i.e. does this theory hold up across the board?





And, as we've discussed before, to make it even more confusing, my lineage calls it a stork, at least in the lineage passed on to me verbally - White Stork Cools its Wings. In the original book written by Gu Ruzhang on the lineage, he calls it a crane, or at least that's how Brennan translates it: "7 白鶴亮翅 WHITE CRANE SHOWS ITS WINGS" (interesting that both the snake and the crane mentioned in the form are "white" though).

In any case, Tai Chi has never (to me at least) taken the level of animal mimicry much beyond a simple tip of the hat from the name of a posture to an animal - crane, monkey, tiger... - if you compare that to the actual, much more shamanistic, 'taking on the spirit of an animal' approach of (older) Xing Yi and Xin Yi - that's on a different level.

Who can say what has been lost to the mists of time though, especially given the trauma these CMA lineages lived through - war, famine, lawlessness, chaos, republicanism wiping old non-scientific traditions out, then communism wiping everything out, etc...

We are often left with only echoes of the original idea.

G

[Trick]

Zhang San Feng - San Feng could perhaps translate into-Trismegistus ?
Hermes Trismegistus - Thoth - Ibis.

Ibis - a crane like bird.
Hermes and his staff - which is winged and coiled by snakes.

Journey to the west was mentioned - parts of that story can relate to Egypt and biblical tales - Thoth the mediator of the gods, earth and the underworld, the child in a basket put in the river.

More and more I think about it a lot of Chinese old stories and legends might have their origin in and around the ancient Middle East, brought to China by Persians

Even the story about the young Yue Fei relate to Moses on the river, Yue Fei might even have been of Persian descent(other signs of that actually point to that) which was also the case with Bodhidharma the “founder” of shaolin quan-fa of which Zang San feng with the help of the snake and crane saw the ancient law of dualism in harmony which probably was first understood in ancient Middle East, which probably is the west in the journey.

The mother palm is not about a palm or even the palm trees of the Middle East, the harmony of heaven/man/earth and all the omnipresent dualities is the way to go - as the knowledgeable Bruce of this forum kind of wrote - any and all the TJQ postures will do fine.

[Trick]

what is the "mother palm" or the santi zhan zhuang of taijiquan?

we can say the quality is peng jin, but (afaik) there isn't a "hold santishi" kind of "key" that everyone says... or maybe they do and i somehow didn't hear

taiji is said to be spherical... think about the qualities that make a shape spherical
with out necessarily, reflecting the physical shape..

Taiji could be said to be reflective of a hollow sphere with
the parts of the body inside and out, virtually connected by the mind.. . allowing the body/mind to react
as a sphere...


Peng jin comes from this....


If you'r looking for the "one shape"

It might be said to be the

hold ball posture


Master Kuo Lian Ying (1897-1984)

all other movements variations of this basic posture

Yes TJQ practiced correct should bring forth the spherical, that’s a main aim of the practice, however it seem most who practice TJQ actually don’t aim for that, most seem more one sided intheir take of their practice .
Holding the ball/hugging the tree are just the beginning mindset to the exercise as that mindset only suggest just that - holding and hugging, which alone does not develop the sphere to read what’s going on around.

[GrahamB]

If this is the combat stance, then how do you stop the obvious problem of your crown jewels being open for every conceivable attack?

There's a concept of doors, you only have to close the ones they can walk through. Windows are out of reach and do a lot more good open.

Let me torture that metaphor a little more... every good burglar knows the best way into a house is an open window.

[origami_itto]

If this is the combat stance, then how do you stop the obvious problem of your crown jewels being open for every conceivable attack?

There's a concept of doors, you only have to close the ones they can walk through. Windows are out of reach and do a lot more good open.

Let me torture that metaphor a little more... every good burglar knows the best way into a house is an open window.

In western heavy weapons the idea is that you can only close so many doors, some HAVE to be open, you just don't have enough weapon and shield, and you can't both be defended and be attacking (which is an opening).

So if you have an open door that you can close in one movement, and your opponent has to do two movements to go through it, it's a window on the second floor. When they get the ladder, you can kick it out from under them.

In those pictures, the crotch might look open, but it doesn't look like the other guy can exploit that without some other preparatory movement to put them in range and be loaded to attack.

Like if you are in a bow stance, right foot forward, and I have your right arm with both hands, you're not going to be able to pick up that front foot to kick me, just won't happen, as soon as you pick it up I'm pulling you into the gap. If you try to come around from the other side with a punch from the left I can just put your right side in the way. That open crotch just doesn't matter in this particular context.

Sure, somebody REALLY good could move through that into an offense, maybe with a snake creeps down or something, it's all contextual and dependent on relative level, right? Generally speaking, though, I don't see people moving that well, and even if they could, the math favors YCF there, as described as a matter of timing.

[Steve James]

Hmm, imo, snake and crane are like open and closed, or straight and curved, all yin and yang.

[Steve James]

It is interesting though. What is the theoretical difference between the birds: crane, goose, stork, or sparrow and cock. Perhaps the names have something to do with their qualities or characteristics. Snake seems fairly easy to characterize. Whaddaya think? Not a rhetorical question, btw. I'd argue, for ex., that "cock" can have some relation to stepping. But, I'm not as clear on the others.

[windwalker]

Different regional locations may have had different names for the same type of movements...

Diving for the Pearl , white snake puts out tongue ect .

"Assisted monkey flip off ramp".

maybe not a Chinese name...

[wayne hansen]

Who is the golden cock and what does standing on one leg signify
The drawings of ta Lu the groin is never in danger if you understand the drill

[BruceP]

taiji is said to be spherical... think about the qualities that make a shape spherical
with out necessarily, reflecting the physical shape..

Taiji could be said to be reflective of a hollow sphere with
the parts of the body inside and out, virtually connected by the mind.. . allowing the body/mind to react
as a sphere...


Peng jin comes from this....


If you'r looking for the "one shape"

It might be said to be the

hold ball posture


Master Kuo Lian Ying (1897-1984)

all other movements variations of this basic posture

Without one knowing the 'motion in stillness' of holding the ball, the 'posture' has an inherent risk of becoming rote and dead-ended, or worse...

Hold Ball is the culmination of what emerges from all the other work, but it can be misunderstood if it's the One Thing because people tend to tack their own BS onto things that aren't comprehensive and straight-forward enough as to be inviolable, immune to peoples' 'machinations' and their proclivity to 'creative' bastardization.

While I definitely don't think it's wrong, I don't necessarily agree that it's a good point of entry without instruction and feedback from someone who KNOWS it.

Wayne listed YCF's postures and their purpose, and, as he said, it a pretty good start. I kind of agree. But again, peoples' creativity based on what they believe they're feeling will get in the way. And then they argue.

But Repulse really is an excellent point of entry to understanding all the other Mothers because it can teach one to read the maps and navigate the terrain, as it were. But,.........as you kind of alluded to, the shape isn't the shape - the posture isn't the posture. The motion that is hidden in the stillness is what's most important in gaining map-reading skills.

[windwalker]

To be clear.

Never work with complete beginners for the most part, most people have 10 or more years of Taiji practice before working with me..
What I look at in meeting them, asking them show me their beginning posture, how they open their solo practice...

From there corrections are done with hands on work helping to illustrate the why and how.
a few postures "re-pulse monkey being" one of them, ,
are used to help work in different ideas...later on linked when the formal solo practice starts.
The emphases on practical usage, understanding through demonstrated application.


Of those I met in Taiwan...I use written text in Chinese by noted masters in my line of taiji.
helping to tie in what they already know with hands on demos...the ones often questioned
used as a definitive way of getting a point across making what they say and know but either can not do, or
do correctly , a physical reality..

Quite interesting...and funny as I tell them to stop faking it...they laughing saying it's not fake....
good times

For some due to the nature of their practice "competitive style push hands" we start from there, from what they do...
Illustrating, a different method allowing them to feel it in use real time...a little harder due their own skill sets which are quite good, it's what they practice and do...Not something that has an interest for me outside of some informal testing.

Hold ball posture, something that takes a while to realize through out the practice,,,in the practice...

[BruceP]

For some due to the nature of their practice "competitive style push hands" we start from there, from what they do...
Illustrating, a different method allowing them to feel it in use real time...a little harder due their own skill sets which are quite good, it's what they practice and do...Not something that has an interest for me outside of some informal testing

They're in good hands

Hold ball posture, something that takes a while to realize through out the practice,,,in the practice...

yes...feedback from someone who KNOWS it.

And to be clear, I understand it only well enough to know that I don't understand it well enough that I could ever share its practice with anyone else, having not had that feedback that would keep it from becoming rote and dead-ended, or worse.

[everything]

it's also interesting as it seems not too dissimilar to yiquan's "combat stance". feels different as far as neigong and the "spheres" and "motion in stillness" go, at least to me. for example in the first, just experimenting for a few minutes, the "sphere" feels more in the "triangle" between arms and torso, and sort of "inward" and "yin". or maybe more "expanding" into the yin side of the arms. in the second, the "sphere" feels sort of "around" and a bit "ward off" and "yang" and "expanding" of the ward off and yang side of the arms. subtle.

[Trick]

“Hugging the tree” seem an easy enough exercise, and it actually is, but not in the way the inexperienced think. As Bruce point out, one should really seek out someone who KNOWS the exercise, get instructions in person.
But for a teaser, to begin with Hugging the tree is more relevant than holding the ball, throw away the ball, and seek up an knowledgeable Yiquan guy, best go to China.