Old thread about Chen Wangting / Xinyi connections MoGou

[salcanzonieri]

Read the following discussion thread

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?65564-Changhuxinyimen-(Songshan-sect)

It ties together some info, showing how why there is XYQ and TongBei material in Chen martial arts.

Also, this article connects as well:

http://chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/TJQorigins.html

The Chen Yi Lu set (and thus the Yang) closely follows each posture in the same order, as in the Shaolin set Shaolin Xinyi Quan - 心意拳 (Heart Mind Boxing) / Xie Quan - 斜拳 (Slanting Boxing).
The articles would make it make sense, making it the root of Chen TJQ Yi Lu.

The Er Lu Pao Chui set, on the other hand, has many similar postures/movements of MoGou village Shaolin Hong Quan (from late 1500s)
And it would be one of the sets learned by Chen Wangting.

[Mrwawa]

Thanks for the information. That seems to tie a lot of threads together. I especially liked the information about Jiangfa.

[HotSoup]

Is there any video of “Shaolin Xinyi Quan - 心意拳 (Heart Mind Boxing) / Xie Quan - 斜拳 (Slanting Boxing)”?

[wayne hansen]

I’m pretty sure it’s on the
Monkey steals a peach
Hsing I series

[Trick]

is ”shaolin xinyiquan” meaning to be xinyiba ?
xinyiba taulo if there ever was such they were lost, any such form is most certainly modern creation.

[salcanzonieri]

is ”shaolin xinyiquan” meaning to be xinyiba ?
xinyiba taulo if there ever was such they were lost, any such form is most certainly modern creation.

Shaolin has two systems, the much ancient Louhan Quan system, all the forms start on the left.
the Rou Quan system, which comes from Xinyi Ba (didn't die out in the local villages, just at Shaolin itself), all the forms move to the right before going to the left (as does Tai Chi Quan - which all the moves of tai chi can be found in all the various Rou Quan system forms).

There are various forms from shaolin named XinYi Quan, originating from different time periods.

The Shaolin form most like Chen form is properly named "Xie Quan" slanting fist (from brush knee twist step).

Chen Xin in his book mentions that Chen uses (besides Tong Bei) the Song Tai Tzu Chang Quan form (which is also called Tai Tzu Visits Southern Tang).
The Shaolin Xie Quan (slanted boxing), also known as XinYi Quan, set contains all the material that is not found in the Taizhu Chang Quan set, that the Chen TJQ Yi Lu set uses!

Click on the link below to see the comarison chart that shows side by side the Chen Yi Lu set, the Shaolin Taizhu Chang Quan set, and the Shaolin Xie Quan set.
http://bgtent.com/naturalcma/images/comparison%20Chen%20TJQ%20vs%20Shaolin%20TZQ%20and%20XYQ.pdf

[salcanzonieri]

Is there any video of “Shaolin Xinyi Quan - 心意拳 (Heart Mind Boxing) / Xie Quan - 斜拳 (Slanting Boxing)”?

There are pieces of it in this video, you can see all the really different postures found in Chen are also in this Shaolin Xie Quan, NO TWO other forms anywhere have these same movements/postures:

The actual Shaolin Xinyi Quan (少林 心意拳) / Xie Quan - Slanting Boxing (斜拳) is shown at 1:13 until 1:55. Only a piece of each of the 6 sections is shown



Read the charts in my previous post, the forms follow each other move by move (using the two Shaolin forms, Sung Tai Tzu Chang Quan and Shaolin Xie Quan, when one ends the moves are picked in the other form.

[salcanzonieri]

Shaolin Rou Quan system that come from Xinyi Ba are obviously from post 1644, being that they were influenced by Ji Long Feng's and his students later visiting and exchanging with Shaolin material. Hence why there is an obvious XY influence on TJQ (even them using Yue Fei's thesis).

There is a much older series of Rou Quan sets that are not from Xinyi Ba, but its movements are found in Yang Tai Chi. Even the foot patterns and the "yield, redirect, absorb, release" idea.

[salcanzonieri]

is ”shaolin xinyiquan” meaning to be xinyiba ?
xinyiba taulo if there ever was such they were lost, any such form is most certainly modern creation.

Shaolin has two systems, the much ancient Louhan Quan system, all the forms start on the left.
the Rou Quan system, which comes from Xinyi Ba (didn't die out in the local villages, just at Shaolin itself), all the forms move to the right before going to the left (as does Tai Chi Quan - which all the moves of tai chi can be found in all the various Rou Quan system forms).

There are various forms from shaolin named XinYi Quan, originating from different time periods.

The Shaolin form most like Chen form is properly named "Xie Quan" slanting fist (from brush knee twist step).

Chen Xin in his book mentions that Chen uses (besides Tong Bei) the Song Tai Tzu Chang Quan form (which is also called Tai Tzu Visits Southern Tang).
The Shaolin Xie Quan (slanted boxing), also known as XinYi Quan, set contains all the material that is not found in the Taizhu Chang Quan set, that the Chen TJQ Yi Lu set uses!

Click on the link below to see the comarison chart that shows side by side the Chen Yi Lu set, the Shaolin Taizhu Chang Quan set, and the Shaolin Xie Quan set.
http://bgtent.com/naturalcma/images/comparison%20Chen%20TJQ%20vs%20Shaolin%20TZQ%20and%20XYQ.pdf

As you can see from the chart, the Xie Quan is not only in the same sequential order of postural movements, they many times have the same exact names as Chen Yi Lu, and the same functional use of the movements. Also, all three forms repeat a section (3rd section). People wonder they Tai Ji repeats in the 3rd section, but the chart shows that the Xie Quan does it as well.

All the commonality between Xie Quan and Tai Ji set was discovered in the 1980s in China by French anthropologists. They did side by side comparisons of the drawing from both forms (as is reprinted in my book "The Hidden History of the Chinese Internal Martial Arts".

[Trick]

All the commonality between Xie Quan and Tai Ji set was discovered in the 1980s in China by French anthropologists. They did side by side comparisons of the drawing from both forms (as is reprinted in my book "The Hidden History of the Chinese Internal Martial Arts".

It has been said for ages that most of if not all Chinese quan-fa originated at shaolin, so any new theories on that are not exactly mindblowing.
Shaolin and Chen village are in the same province so any exercises looking alike are nothing surprisingly, and what’s in vogue most want to do, think modern times - ninjutsu and bjj
At the shaolin temple, civil martial arts especially pugilistic such exercises were most certainly not as we can see in the movies or shows with plenty of forms and such, a few what was seen as essential exercises at most, and probably in short sequences on their own.
Later those sequences puzzled together into taulo in slightly different ways according to the taste of the puzzler, but still somewhat ends up samewize.
Around in early 1900 quan-fa was lost at the temple, something for example Wang Xiangzhai witnessed himself while visiting there.
Building back the temple and its traditions it seem it had to scrape together whatever that could eventually be found, crumbles from around the province, country and perhaps even abroad…..heck, at the time even the Japanese shorinji kempo group dared to be so bold to proclaim sole inheritors of shaolin, of which probably sparked an hurried intensive recreation of shaolin.
The founder of shorinji kempo had around the same time as Wang Xiangzhai visited the temple while traveling around in China in hope of learning shaolin quanfa, but basically made same conclusion that shaolin boxing was vanishing.

Anyway that Chen family boxing have similarities with xinyi quan and and especially contain the theory of tongbei would be expected.

By the way, what’s the names of those French anthropologists ?

[Bao]

It has been said for ages that most of if not all Chinese quan-fa originated at shaolin, so any new theories on that are not exactly mindblowing.
Shaolin and Chen village are in the same province so any exercises looking alike are nothing surprisingly, and what’s in vogue most want to do, think modern times - ninjutsu and bjj

That something has "been said for ages" doesn't mean it's true. Martial arts already existed in China. They were brought in to the temple by wanted criminals and robbers taking refuge in temples. They got food and housing for protecting the temple.

"Shaolin arts" you see today in and around Shaolin are mostly longfist and wushu styles, very different from what scholars believe was practiced in the Shaolin temple. Also, what could be considered "Old Shaolin" has its roots in systems that developed around the early Song dynasty, around 500 years after the Shaolin temple was built. These arts already blended Taoist and Buddhists practice together.

The merging of Chen village Chen fist with local Longfist styles probably happened very late, after the time of Yang Luchan.

[HotSoup]

There are pieces of it in this video, you can see all the really different postures found in Chen are also in this Shaolin Xie Quan, NO TWO other forms anywhere have these same movements/postures:

The actual Shaolin Xinyi Quan (少林 心意拳) / Xie Quan - Slanting Boxing (斜拳) is shown at 1:13 until 1:55. Only a piece of each of the 6 sections is shown



Read the charts in my previous post, the forms follow each other move by move (using the two Shaolin forms, Sung Tai Tzu Chang Quan and Shaolin Xie Quan, when one ends the moves are picked in the other form.

Were you able to find more about this guy/other people training the same thing? I think it’s important to exclude the possibility of him just showing some form of Zhaobao (what he does looks closer to that than to Chen).

[HotSoup]

Never mind, found your citations of T. Dufresne & J. Nguyen. What they've got to say about the hidden hand punch is something I’ve been wondering about for some time. Must admit, this video and their research are both very peculiar, to say the least!

[Trick]

It has been said for ages that most of if not all Chinese quan-fa originated at shaolin, so any new theories on that are not exactly mindblowing.
Shaolin and Chen village are in the same province so any exercises looking alike are nothing surprisingly, and what’s in vogue most want to do, think modern times - ninjutsu and bjj

That something has "been said for ages" doesn't mean it's true. Martial arts already existed in China. They were brought in to the temple by wanted criminals and robbers taking refuge in temples. They got food and housing for protecting the temple.

"Shaolin arts" you see today in and around Shaolin are mostly longfist and wushu styles, very different from what scholars believe was practiced in the Shaolin temple. Also, what could be considered "Old Shaolin" has its roots in systems that developed around the early Song dynasty, around 500 years after the Shaolin temple was built. These arts already blended Taoist and Buddhists practice together.

The merging of Chen village Chen fist with local Longfist styles probably happened very late, after the time of Yang Luchan.

yes, that something has been said for ages doesnt make it to be the truth.....But yet new variations of that ”truth” notion proclamed as fact keeps being pushed.

that the taiji form surface wize show similarities with some other styles forms are no groundbreaking new info.

To go back to myth - Zhang Trismegistus a shaolin diciple on a moutain top had a vision which he put in to his shaolin.

The tale might be fiction but the essence in it is true.
a taiji form is only a taji form if the right mindset is working it, if that is not the case then one can probably define the form as shaolin longfist or any other name but taijiquan it is not and making charts and diagrams comparing postures doesnt say anything that really matter.

anyway, about shaolin and more specific the henan province, once upon a time the area was a hub, people from far away and foreign lands came by silk roads, many settled in the area, new cultures merged.with local. not far fetched to think martial cultures from abroad especially persia also sttled in.
slide forward to ”modern” times Henan, it mostly a poor place not much room for quan-fa practice anymore, people struggled to just get food on their tables, most gung-fu in the area where lost in fragments, while in the big cities the situation for chinese civil martial arts to flourish was positive.

yes. i agree, lots of ”traditional” quan-fa form are most certainly ”modern” creations, but still they can hold value if they are pieced together of pieces of great stuff.

[salcanzonieri]

Never mind, found your citations of T. Dufresne & J. Nguyen. What they've got to say about the hidden hand punch is something I’ve been wondering about for some time. Must admit, this video and their research are both very peculiar, to say the least!

I have the original Shaolin book that discusses this form and shows how to do it, step by step, posture by posture.
I used the info and illustrations in my book and discussed everything T. Dufresne & J. Nguyen had to do about it in my book as well.