Tang Hao’s Analysis Of Wang Zongyue

[twocircles13]

I was on his website today and noticed that Paul Brennan recently posted his translation of An Analysis Of Wang Zongyue’s Taiji Boxing Classics And Conceal & Reveal Spear Manual Tang Hao (1936). I think Pau’s translations are good, one of the best things about Paul’s blog is that he posts the original Chinese text. If you have questions about his translations, explore for yourself. If you are not fluent in Chinese, you can compare the Brennan translation to Google’s or ChatGPT’s or look up specific words using online dictionaries. This is helpful if you have texts with esoteric meanings.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2023/11/30/tang-haos-analysis-of-wang-zongyue/

You may or may not question whether Tang's analysis is biased, but it is hard to dispute his diligence in research. He had access to many primary sources and points to others. Looking at his evidence is informative.

I was enlightened as to where many of the ideas now preached as dogma originated. We should perhaps understand the shaky ground upon which our dogma is based.

Edit: The above book seems to be a follow up to the Yinfu Spear Manual translated here.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2023/09/30/yinfu-spear-manual/

[everything]

Not clear what conclusions to draw.

Suppose we had “proof” so and so “started” art X.

But then so what? Where did so and so learn? Does it matter?

What if the Big Bang were “proved”? Then what?

[robert]

I thought it was interesting, especially the inclusion of the Conceal & Reveal Spear manual attributed to Wang Zongyue. Having Wang Zongyue include his boxing treatises in the spear manual is interesting.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2023/09/30/yinfu-spear-manual/

[Trick]

now im going off topic.
im seeing quite often here that Brennan translation articles are posted here, and i think the guy is doing a great job.
But who is Brennan, what is his martial art background ?

[GrahamB]

Isn't it hugely unsurprising that the communist Tang Hao came up with the idea of Tai Chi originated by working class peasants in the rural countryside, rather than belonging to religious groups or the intellectual elites of Beijing...? China has never had a free press - that's always worth remembering.

Isn't the name "wang Zongyue" a play on words- i.e. a coded reference to General Yue Fei?

https://thetaichinotebook.com/2020/08/1 ... represent/

Wang = King,
Zhong = Revering.
Yue = Yue Fei, either himself or his lineages/tradition (via his army).

[Trick]

british colonialism and opium pushing in memory lead Tang Hao to write heretical little pieces.

[twocircles13]

Isn't it hugely unsurprising that the communist Tang Hao came up with the idea of Tai Chi originated by working class peasants in the rural countryside, rather than belonging to religious groups or the intellectual elites of Beijing...? China has never had a free press - that's always worth remembering.

Isn't the name "wang Zongyue" a play on words- i.e. a coded reference to General Yue Fei?

https://thetaichinotebook.com/2020/08/1 ... represent/

Wang = King,
Zhong = Revering.
Yue = Yue Fei, either himself or his lineages/tradition (via his army).

My dictionary says King Ancestor Yue or King Sect Yue. It is an interesting notion.

I have no problem with the idea that people originated martial arts. Obviously, that is the one truth nearly all of us can agree upon. The “nearly” exception being those who favor supernatural sources. The question is in what environments were people sufficiently skilled to synthesize new martial arts. I’m thinking of Bloom’s Taxonomy (Hierarchy of Learning), a village, a town, a city, a military unit, a monastery? Any of the above are possible.

My answer is that there was probably a list of factors, and when those factors were right, there was the potential for creation of a new martial art. Of course, it would be based on older ones, but perhaps, with a new innovation or two.

As for Wang Zong Yue, Yue Fei, and Zhang Sanfeng, these were attributions to folk heroes, and the writings, possibly spirit writings. That is, a person got a great idea or they wrote a brilliant treatise on whatever. Because, in the Qing dynasty especially, the culture was suspicious of the value of new things, or perhaps they were convinced in the value of old things, and martial arts, in particular, could get a writer in trouble if the political winds shifted, They attributed their writings to some ancient popular source, like Yue Fei, or Zhang Sanfeng, or, if they were bold, they said they were channeling his spirit as they wrote. It really helped that there were popular ritual theater plays portraying the martial prowess of these heroes. Spirit writing was very common and well documented.

I am very skeptical of any lineal transfer of knowledge coming from these sources.

[GrahamB]

Yes, they were folk heroes, but also, at some point real people. As real as a communist peasant worker. In the case of Zhangsangfeng he was clearly several different real people. We talk about the spirit writing aspect, and Zhangsanfeng, in this excellent chat I had with Wudang Taoist, Simon Cox:

Well, I thought it was excellent anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWQL5WmltEk



I think we (we as people) need to get away from this Confucian-inspired (or possibly Star Wars-inspired) - direct student\teacher relationship tracing all the way back - and get more into the idea of marital arts being generated out of traditions, not by individual people.

[Bao]

I've never heard a good explanation why several similar taoists should have had the exact same name written with the same characters. Seems highly unlikely. I've heard people claim there were several Zhang Sanfeng, but they don't explain how or who they were.

There's only one historically recorded Zhang Sanfeng, the rest is just fiction. But I am sure the myth making around him might have made ppl confuse him with other ppl or they might have different reasons to put his birth in another time.

[everything]

When we see developments in mma, it’s to solve a problem people had.

For example BJJ locks from bottom.

Wrestlers solved by “inventing” ground and pound.

Back then (in Wang’s time), in many ways they would have a “limited data set” (no worldwide empty hand rules format, no extensive film, no feeder sports with even higher participation, etc) so the problems/solutions could be more niche, leading to a large variety of adjustments.

Presumably you might then put it into your “form”.

But you know…what question do you/they want to answer?

[everything]

Agree with Graham on the Overly Confucian / Star Wars warped lens

[GrahamB]

This article might help the intellectually challenged amongst us.

https://www.okanaganvalleywudang.com/on ... ng-sanfeng

[everything]

Enjoyed it

[twocircles13]

Yes, they were folk heroes, but also, at some point real people. As real as a communist peasant worker. In the case of Zhangsangfeng he was clearly several different real people. We talk about the spirit writing aspect, and Zhangsanfeng, in this excellent chat I had with Wudang Taoist, Simon Cox:

Well, I thought it was excellent anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWQL5WmltEk

I think we (we as people) need to get away from this Confucian-inspired (or possibly Star Wars-inspired) - direct student\teacher relationship tracing all the way back - and get more into the idea of marital arts being generated out of traditions, not by individual people.

I also thought it was an excellent podcast.

I think it is both people and traditions. People can exist without traditions, but their culture cannot. Traditions cannot exist at all without people. While George Lucas lifted the Asian notion of master and apprentice for Star Wars, Europe preserved much of its culture and knowledge into the modern age through master-apprentice relationships within guilds.

To withstand its tumultuous history, the Chinese culture and psyche has had to be pretty good at retaining knowledge through traditions, at least until the 20th century. That’s why it's even conceivable to some that a tradition could be faithfully passed down for hundreds or even a thousand years. When you add effectiveness as a criteria, in martial arts, it either works or it doesn’t, so it is even more difficult to deviate too far from the norm. So, we can’t discount tradition too much as a factor.

The individual is also essential. Critical elements of a tradition could be lost in a generation or two. This is also why extended family and community was so important. On the other hand, talented individuals can add to a tradition through new ideas and innovation, or adapt it to a changing environment, which is also key to survival.

But, this combination is part of the reason that innovation was cloaked in a veil of tradition, even if it was a fabricated one.

[everything]

Plus the follow the money marketing shtick angle.

The “truth” is clouded by all of that “hype”.