the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

There are three methods and the last one seen less often:

1. Rolling step. Smooth transition from heel to toe.
2. Mud walking (tang ni bu). Sliding motion.
3. Crane (step up high & land flat). Less popular than the first two.

There are several variations for 2 & 3 depending on how to finish each step.

Would like to hear which stepping methods are being used amongst the RSF members. If you could also state the style of BG you practice that would be great.

I was trained using tang ni bu but I continue per habit though keeping in mind that the historical record in some places
states that terrain influenced the use of 'mud walking step'. If not during tang nu bu, I literally walk the circle
slowly with 'eggshell walk', not much diferent but within the 'slower walking stance' per conditioning.

With a late master (Lu Hungbin) his 'old man walk' was not quite 'mud walking' but the essence of the conditioning still mirrored my
initial teacher (Zhang Hongchao!)

Are you a Liang or Cheng stylist?

I trained under the former's system with emphasis being placed on the toes coming down and push forward while stimulating the K1 point. I no longer walk like that as I place the entire foot flat on the ground without sliding the foot forward. I suppose moving from dirt to concrete is what caused this change in my stepping.

I like, "every step is a kick".

"Would like to hear which stepping methods are being used amongst the RSF members. If you could also state the style of BG you practice that would be great."

The Cheng style I practiced only used mud stepping. My Sun Bagua, just as in Sun Bg in general, only uses natural stepping, heel to toe.

The problem with many Cheng stylists is that they overdo the mud stepping and sliding. It doesn't become very practical for combat. The problem with Sun stylists is that they sometimes walk too "natural" and don't sink. Instead they "float" so they can't sink or store qi and can't develop any jin.

Mainly #2, but sometimes #3. However, while many say "tangnibu," there are actually several different methods with the same name.

gerard wrote:Are you a Liang or Cheng stylist?

I trained under the former's system with emphasis being placed on the toes coming down and push forward while stimulating the K1 point. I no longer walk like that as I place the entire foot flat on the ground without sliding the foot forward. I suppose moving from dirt to concrete is what caused this change in my stepping.

Both of the above are "tangnibu" (the former is more commonly seen in some Cheng styles). The one I do is more like the second.

edededed wrote:but sometimes #3. However, while many say "tangnibu," there are actually several different methods with the same name.

Great for martial purposes. Probably the best training method for that reason. Bizarre no videos exist using this stepping aside from a few by HJH. Why isn't it more popular??

Yes the mud walking can be further divided into different methods.

Bao wrote:The problem with many Cheng stylists is that they overdo the mud stepping and sliding. It doesn't become very practical for combat.

Unless you are a judokan expert in throwing people around like ragdolls!

gerard wrote:There are three methods and the last one seen less often:

1. Rolling step. Smooth transition from heel to toe.
2. Mud walking (tang ni bu). Sliding motion.
3. Crane (step up high & land flat). Less popular than the first two.

There are several variations for 2 & 3 depending on how to finish each step.

Would like to hear which stepping methods are being used amongst the RSF members. If you could also state the style of BG you practice that would be great.

One and two, plus snake crushing steps, whatever those are called, where you step as if each step is intended to crush the head of a snake.

not a bgz practitioner "for real" ... in modern times (maybe looking back), we have things like "barefoot running" - not heel to toe, maybe more "midfoot" landing - as the would be "natural step". guess that is somewhat between 1 and 2. if I try to do "circle jogging" in my living room barefooted, it's somewhat like that. in "multiple opponent" field sports, esp if manipulating a ball with the feet at the same time, that method is also helpful.

high then low could (should?) also be toe down first

and of course there's the popular meme of "floating steps" --- here's a guy doing super interesting circle walking
https://www.tiktok.com/@much/video/7291 ... 45?lang=en

gerard wrote:

Bao wrote:The problem with many Cheng stylists is that they overdo the mud stepping and sliding. It doesn't become very practical for combat.

Unless you are a judokan expert in throwing people around like ragdolls!

The key point was overdo. Judokas have their own techniques, sinking raisng, jumping etc, mud stepping is not all they know.

I periodically walk the circle, but I am not a Baguazhang practitioner. I’ve been watching this topic with interest, because I’ve had questions for a long time.

I have been taught circle walking 3.14 times by different instructors. Each time was a little different.

The first one, I do not count for reasons I will not get into here. I didn’t learn much about bagua, but a lot about other things. The next 0.14, I actually learned quite a bit about bagua, but I was supposed to be learning about Chen Taijiquan.

Next, I had two instructors trained in the Wutan system who co-taught, so that is Yin Fu style. We did the rolling step. It wasn’t strongly heel toe. We were given the injunction to walk during our own practice sessions, and we would come back to more bagua instruction in a few months. We also had learned Du Yuzi’s Chen Taijiquan that he learned from Chen Yanxi, among other things.

A few years later, I studied Fu style Dragon Bagua briefly with Lin Weiran son of Lin Chaozhen, disciple of Fu Zhensong. We learned toe-first mud-sliding step.

The first time we met with him, I kept correcting my step according to the rules of stability from Chen Taijiquan. He would "un-correct” it, so I asked him why this stepping violated the rules of stability. When he found I had studied a Chen Yanxi form he had me demonstrate it. That elicited discussion about Fu Zhensong, who had also studied with Chan Yanxi, but decades earlier than Du.

Finally, he said, Bagua violates rules of stability because when the opponent attacks you want to be unstable, loose, and mobile, yet still connected. When you contact, the slightest touch moves you, collapses you. In that same movement, you move from unstable to stable, much like taijiquan or Xingyiquan, and often you will attack, but other options are available.

The first rule violated by most circle walking is to never place the feet in a T. These lines do not have to be perpendicular. I teach this as the “Taiji Ski Rule”. If you wearing taiji skis, it’s OK to cross the skis (paths of the feet), but you never want a ski on one foot to touch the other foot, in front or behind. This creates great instability. Try it. Stand in a T-position and have someone push on you in any direction. You’ll fall right over.

Other taijiquan rules violated are twisting the spine, allowing the wrist to cross the centerline, and allowing the palm to go above the eyebrow.

The taijiquan rules of stability are gone into more in depth here. http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/xiaojia.html.

My question, Is the idea of walking to elicit instability just the understanding of this teacher, or is it a Fu style thing, taught in a few styles, or is this generally taught universally in Baguazhang?

OP (gerard), how are you doing the stepping?

Very good exposition of stepping methods from Huang Zhicheng who was a Yin Fu/Gong Baotian practitioner. Most of the material I learned with regard to stepping is found in this first video - shows an excellent way to practice tang ni bu and also you could add wrist weights - we met him in 1998 or 1999 in, I believe, Jinan, Shandong province - I don't remember much other than he was supposed to try to come to the United States - Unfortunately he died relatively young from a heart attack (that is what I heard but never solidly verified)

Threw in his second video - all good stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXqi-qf1xQU

The Eight Diagrams Heaven Division (Part 1)
In the video, Master Huang Zhi Cheng demonstrates the Bagua Zhang style jibenggong (base).The master shows in detail the basic technique of the style: movements, the position of the palms, 8 basic palms, the basic ligaments of the style. The training is carried out with repetition and detailed explanation



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnClj3lLVS0

The Eight Diagrams Heaven Division (Part 2)
In the video, Master Huang Zhi Cheng demonstrates the jibenggong (base) of the Bagua Zhang style.The master shows in detail the basic technique of the style: movements, the position of the palms, 8 basic palms, the basic forms of the style, gives the application of these forms. Some fragments of work with jian, dao, zhuangyuan bi (academician's brush), tzu yuanyang yue (axes of the zi, wu and mandarin ducks).

In the second part, Master Chen Shi Sun Zhijun and his disciple dismantle both the base and the complete Tao. The training is carried out with repetition and detailed explanation.

Tang Ni Bu is Wading through mud, like what you would do in a Rice patty. So there’s a couple of things that this means. If you don’t want the mud to suck your shoes off, then you need to lift your whole foot up, not heel first. And there’s the idea that each step needs intention, since you’re balancing on one leg, while carefully bringing your other foot forward, then carefully placing it. It’s slow to make progress.
Baguazhang doesn’t want the feet to come very high off the ground, so it just hovers slightly above the ground. If someone is practicing in grass then it looks like their feet are sliding. So some people slide their feet now. It’s okay if you’re on something slick and wearing just socks. But once you put on shoes with tread and turn on rough ground, then when trying to force it to slide you gradually begin to jam your patellar tendon up into your knee with each step.
Heel to toe is called Ziran Bu- just the way you naturally walk. You never exaggerate the heel coming up. It’s just the way you want to Turn in a Circle until you learn the Mud Step where you want to try and pick the foot up flatter and hover it, then place flat. Which slightly and gradually begins to stretch your achilles tendons.
Regardless of how you walk, you want to start developing one of the 8 requirements- Grasping the ground with your toes. The feet are like hands. You can’t grasp something in your hand if it’s already in a fist. You have to pull your fingers open and spread them. So the important part of this requirement is that you’re pulling your toes back and spreading them in every step. This not only strengthens your calves but also protects the tendons and ligaments where they connect to your knee, just in case your feet are getting jammed into the ground.

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