Course of the Yellow River

[twocircles13]

Last week, I was looking at the tributaries of the Yellow River, and I happened upon this map and an animation of the changes over time to the Yellow River. We often hear about it flooding and changing course, but I had no idea that the course changes were so dramatic. Many of the changes are relatively recent. The Yellow River often plays a role in the history of much of northern Chinese martial arts.

I thought I’d post this here as a reference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_River#/media/File:Yellow_River_watercourse_changes_en.png

Here’s the animation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_River#/media/File:Yellow_River_course_changes.gif

[everything]

what was happening in those times that changed it so dramatically?

it also makes me think of the drought in California and the USA SW

[origami_itto]

what was happening in those times that changed it so dramatically?

it also makes me think of the drought in California and the USA SW

The cause of the floods is the large amount of fine-grained loess carried by the river from the Loess Plateau, which is continuously deposited along the bottom of its channel. The sedimentation causes natural dams to slowly accumulate. These subaqueous dams are unpredictable and generally undetectable. Eventually, the enormous amount of water needs to find a new way to the sea, forcing it to take the path of least resistance. When this happens, it bursts out across the flat North China Plain, sometimes taking a new channel and inundating most farmland, cities or towns in its path.

[GrahamB]

The 1853 flood really didn't help the Ching.

[twocircles13]

Yeah, floods of the Yellow River and the destruction, famines, rebellions, and wars caused afterward shaped Chinese history. The behavior of the Yellow River was an indicator whether or not a dynasty retained the Mandate of Heaven to rule the people.

I am familiar with how rivers can change course, especially around the delta, and this is toward the mouth of the river, but these are huge, massive changes.

This also has some impact on descriptions of historical locations. If a town is recorded as being on or near the Yellow River, what part of the river and when are vital questions to understand location.

[everything]

this is a bit mind blowing. any idea how they are able to know / try to know those historical courses (especially going so far back to BC dates)?

[yeniseri]

The Great Leap Forward and its many x plans for agriculture and infrastructuer development has wreaked havoc on the landscape of the Yellow River since Nature
and its own course has its 'Path", the Committees of the past forget the basics of soil erosion, excessive rain or drought conditions along with attempts at dam
construction with its own problems for the society. Climate change dynamics do not help, either. Lack of soil nutrition and tree planting/development (its lack)
has further 'damaged' but still Man attempting to avert 'disaster will only lead to Man creating disaster in that process.

[everything]

https://thechinaproject.com/2022/06/29/ ... es-course/

It sounds like quite a repeated tragedy.

In June 1855, it rained heavily in Henan province. This was, of course, not unusual. The rain poured into the Yellow River, already swollen by seasonal flooding thanks to the snowmelt in the far-off Tibetan Plateau. On June 19, the relentless pressure overwhelmed the levee at Tongwaxiang, near Kaifeng. Within a day, a breach three miles wide released raging muddy waters onto the surrounding plain. The river deposited the silt it had accumulated as it traversed north China, burying whole villages in mud. For weeks, wave after wave of floodwaters laid waste to the area. More than 200,000 people died; seven million lost their homes.

In 1938, Chiang Kai-shek’s retreating army intentionally breached the levees near the site of the 1855 rupture so that the plain would flood in hopes of slowing the Japanese advance. The resulting flood killed an estimated 890,000 people and displaced many millions.

It's still not clear to me how they "know" the BC era course changes. "Computer models" and "simulations" .... working in "analytics" professionally, we definitely do not "know" such things so precisely with our "models". Maybe there is a lot more physical evidence as well. What a study in humans trying to control water.

[origami_itto]

https://thechinaproject.com/2022/06/29/when-the-yellow-river-changes-course/

It sounds like quite a repeated tragedy.

In June 1855, it rained heavily in Henan province. This was, of course, not unusual. The rain poured into the Yellow River, already swollen by seasonal flooding thanks to the snowmelt in the far-off Tibetan Plateau. On June 19, the relentless pressure overwhelmed the levee at Tongwaxiang, near Kaifeng. Within a day, a breach three miles wide released raging muddy waters onto the surrounding plain. The river deposited the silt it had accumulated as it traversed north China, burying whole villages in mud. For weeks, wave after wave of floodwaters laid waste to the area. More than 200,000 people died; seven million lost their homes.

In 1938, Chiang Kai-shek’s retreating army intentionally breached the levees near the site of the 1855 rupture so that the plain would flood in hopes of slowing the Japanese advance. The resulting flood killed an estimated 890,000 people and displaced many millions.

It's still not clear to me how they "know" the BC era course changes. "Computer models" and "simulations" .... working in "analytics" professionally, we definitely do not "know" such things so precisely with our "models". Maybe there is a lot more physical evidence as well. What a study in humans trying to control water.

The Chinese people love their records, man. And stuff like where the river flows is less likely to be changed for political reasons

[Appledog]

How do you know the mandate of heaven? Look at where the Yellow River flows.

Interesting idea!

[origami_itto]

How do you know the mandate of heaven? Look at where the Yellow River flows.

Interesting idea!

What occured to me this morning is that, given the nature of the river and the large amount of sediment it displaces along its way, geologists can probably just look at the countryside and figure it out pretty easy by the depth of the deposits and how much is covering it up, carbon dating anything caught in the layers.

I mean, SUPER easy right.

[everything]

lol, but also yeah, it must be something like that, right? i think there are better technologies for "seeing" further below the surface, too.

but isn't there some gigantic logistical problem to go check all those possible pathways even if you have the tech to "see" and date that material.

[origami_itto]

lol, but also yeah, it must be something like that, right? i think there are better technologies for "seeing" further below the surface, too.

but isn't there some gigantic logistical problem to go check all those possible pathways even if you have the tech to "see" and date that material.

Do you have any idea how many Chinese people work for the government?

I recently described a pivotal scene in arguably the biggest sci fi franchise to come out of the country, ever, in which the millions of inhabitants of an alien planet turn themselves into individual transistors in a massive processor.

Like... when you think of Chinese engineering... a certain practically impossible stone structure leaps to mind.

What I'm trying to say is never underestimate the power of mid-level Imperial bureaucrats to organize massive logistical undertakings.

[everything]

lol, the ant army can do anything with 1 billion ants, i guess. everything in here is mind boggling to me. i can't follow any of it.

[twocircles13]

Geologists and geographers plot river paths and changes all the time they usually take a core sample and can "read” the strata and age things by where it is in the layers.. They do also use radio carbon dating for verifying ages occasionally.

I was curious what the scale was on the map with the dates. Zhengzhou, which is the largest city near the Chen Village and the Shaolin Temple (they’d be off the map), would be on the left hand edge of the map. The distance from the northernmost course to the southernmost was about 365 mi (590 km).