Teacher Profile

[Bob]

It's tough to really sort all this out - it could be that the san shou is an add-on - as I've said the Yang Chengfu disciple I know was unfamiliar with it - nothing in Fu Zhongwen's line that I am aware of - nothing in the writings of Chen Weiming - Zhang Manqing didn't show it but ironically TT liang has it - was even a part of Yang Luchan's practice let alone Chen family practice

However maybe it's just one of those well kept secrets -

[Steve James]

Here's YJM's students doing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_iYOrs5c6I

[Bob]

Thank Steve for the clip - I heard the narrator say it was only by taught by a few masters to select students

[Steve James]

@Bob, well, it's not hard to see why such a form was created -if only as a two-person method of practicing the solo form. Imo, it seems like a useful, though not necessary, step before free fighting. If the individual form patterns can be push hands patterns, then so must be true for the form as a whole.

Why wouldn't all styles of "tcc" (or other imas) have something similar? It may be impossible to say why anyone didn't teach it, but we don't know who knew it. YLC probably wouldn't have invented it. Maybe it could be traced to someone in the third generation.

It's clear that students of YCF did it, and it was standardized. The dispersion probably happened in the 30s when masters went to the various regions. YCF went to Shanghai, along with Wu Jianquan -but I haven't heard of Wu people doing it. Of course, they have many variations of phs.

HK does seem a likely origin, though. Which of the Yangs were there in the 30s.

[Steve James]

Well, I had to look up where YJM learned, and it was Taiwan. According to his website:

Dr. Yang began the study of Taijiquan (Yang Style) under Master Kao, Tao (高濤). Dr. Yang's tai chi can be traced back to the Yang family through Master Kao's teacher Yue, Huanzhi (樂奐之), an indoor disciple of Yang, Chengfu (楊澄甫).

Reading further about YJM's teacher's teacher, though, he was in Shanghai -which makes sense since YCF was there.

Mr. Yue, Huanzhi (樂奐之), who held a teaching post at the Catholic Zhendan Middle School (震旦中學) in Shanghai.

[origami_itto]

It's tough to really sort all this out - it could be that the san shou is an add-on - as I've said the Yang Chengfu disciple I know was unfamiliar with it - nothing in Fu Zhongwen's line that I am aware of - nothing in the writings of Chen Weiming - Zhang Manqing didn't show it but ironically TT liang has it - was even a part of Yang Luchan's practice let alone Chen family practice

However maybe it's just one of those well kept secrets -

Huang Sheng Shyan's pushing drills are taken from pieces of it, so I imagine all three of them were aware of it. T. T. did a long form instead of CMC's short form and taught a lot of other things I haven't seen his other students doing. I think he picked a lot up from the other teachers he mentions.

Ray's blog talks a lot about his methods, along with Choi's.

[wayne hansen]

Steve I don’t know if they are connected but their solo san shou form is not the same
TT liang has a good version on YouTube in Taiwan in the 60’s
He later changed it adding in lots of other exercises
It is a good combat form when taught in a realistic way with several variations of each move depending on your partners Shen Fa
YMJ if you look at his first book on it is just external Wu Shu in the clip above his understanding has greatly improved

[Bao]

It's clear that students of YCF did it, and it was standardized. The dispersion probably happened in the 30s when masters went to the various regions. YCF went to Shanghai, along with Wu Jianquan -but I haven't heard of Wu people doing it. Of course, they have many variations of phs.

HK does seem a likely origin, though. Which of the Yangs were there in the 30s.

Jeez... I just provided you guys with a link explaining that the two-man set/sanshou form was with YCF's students before anyone went to HK.

Chen Kung Aka Chen Yanlin published this set in 1943: https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... ou-dui-da/

But he had already copied Yang Family manuscripts in 1930, including this set:

Around 1930, Chen Kung, a rich merchant and student of Yang Cheng-fu, asked to borrow the family transcripts for just one evening so that he might read them to enhance his practice. Chen had been a loyal and dedicated student, so Yang Cheng-fu consented, knowing full well that in one night it would be difficult for even a fast reader to finish the book. What Yang Cheng-fu didn't know was that Chen had hired seven transcribers to work through the night to copy the entire work. After his disappearance (around 1932) he changed professions from merchant to doctor of Chinese medicine. During that same year portions of the manuscript started appearing in various journals, which infuriated the Yang family.

Later, in 1943, Chen's entire copied notes appeared in book form and enjoyed rapid sales throughout China. This further infuriated the Yang family, who then released their own book claiming that Chen's publication was a forgery and that their new, smaller work was the genuine material. Chen, in typical Chinese style, claimed his book contained his own theories and that he only used the Yang family name for authenticity. This was Chinese politics at its best.

Master Liang told me this story. He had heard it through his teacher Cheng Man-ch'ing, who heard it from his teacher, Yang Cheng-fu. With this kind of oral testimony I was never sure about the details. However, Master Jou Tsung-hwa said that Chen Kung confirmed the story when they met in 1978, and now Donald Chen, Chen Kung's grandson, has confirmed it as well.

Before anyone accuses Chen of any wrong-doing, it is clear that the T'ai Chi world owes him a great debt, whatever the ethics or politics that were involved. The Yang family teachings might well have remained hidden or become lost; likewise, the Yang family might never have published the various works of their own. An even greater result was that many masters, for whatever reasons, began publishing their works as well. Chen's courage created a chain reaction of teachers going public with their knowledge.

https://www.reddit.com/r/taijiquan/comm ... en_yanlin/

[wayne hansen]

HSS most likely learnt it from Yap Sui Ting who he asked to take over his teaching in Penang after his run in with Chock Seng Kam
All of Yaps décuplés and their lineages teach it as a main pillar of his system
You are right all of HSS,s set pushing sets are from the San Shou
He invented his own San Shou which few of his students do today

[Bob]

Bao, you'll have to let me slide on this one - old age is tough LOL

Actually I think I have a photo copy of that book that is stuffed away somewhere in my piles - might have gotten it years back like late 80s maybe early 90s - again my memory may not be accurate but I remember in the book there was also some stance work in which one posture was one legged and the kicking foot was to the front with the foot at a 45 degree angle - I think I got the book because I learned the taijiquan qi gong that Jou Tsung Hwa taught at his Farm and I was practicing it and it came from the illustrations in the book - I'll take a look at Brennan's translation later.

I seemed to selectively remembered:

"Later, in 1943, Chen's entire copied notes appeared in book form and enjoyed rapid sales throughout China. This further infuriated the Yang family, who then released their own book claiming that Chen's publication was a forgery and that their new, smaller work was the genuine material. Chen, in typical Chinese style, claimed his book contained his own theories and that he only used the Yang family name for authenticity. This was Chinese politics at its best."

And then I personally chose to discount the authenticity of the qi gong and any of the material in that book and had already stopped practicing Jou's material in the late 80s/early 90s as I became involved with WuTan.I

I think the copy of the book I have was:

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... en-yanlin/
TAIJI BOXING ACCORDING TO CHEN YANLIN
Posted on March 18, 2014 by Paul Brennan

太極拳刀劍桿散手合編
TAIJI COMPILED: THE BOXING, SABER, SWORD, POLE, AND SPARRING
陳炎林
by Chen Yanlin
[published June, 1943]

[translation by Paul Brennan, March, 2014]


I don't want to infringe on copy righted material but this is what was in the copy I had:

[PART THREE: STANCES]

TAIJI BOXING’S STANCE WORK

The SINGLE POSTURE TRAINING OF THE BASIC STAMPING KICK METHOD was I remember most because at that time I didn't think Yang style taijiquan did any type of stance work

And in PART FOUR: ENERGY-MOVING EXERCISE SET that was the qi gong set that Jou Tsung Hwa taught at the time I was at the Farm (It is also found in Jou's book)

[Bao]

I seemed to selectively remembered:

"Later, in 1943, Chen's entire copied notes appeared in book form and enjoyed rapid sales throughout China. This further infuriated the Yang family, who then released their own book claiming that Chen's publication was a forgery and that their new, smaller work was the genuine material. Chen, in typical Chinese style, claimed his book contained his own theories and that he only used the Yang family name for authenticity. This was Chinese politics at its best."

And then discounted the authenticity of the qi gong and any of the material although I stopped practicing Jou's material in the late 80s/early 90s as I became involved with WuTan.

Interesting...

What did you think about Jou's material? I don't really agree with him on everything.

[Bob]

In 1983 I was living in Richmond KY and a friend insisted that I take up martial arts - the school was in the city of Lexington (a great city) and run by Dr. John Ng (Four Seasons) - his taijiquan instructor was Tom Phillips who had studied under Jou Tsung Hwa at Rutger's University in New Jersy (Jou was working on his PhD in Mathematics).

Tom was a great teacher and had given up all of his other martial arts to teach only taijiquan. We learned most of the Yang style material out of Jou's book along with push hands also a little of the Chen style. However, Tom left and I had to find another teacher and did 2 or 3 classes with a Chinese lady who practiced the Wu style (she would roll out a bamboo scroll with all the postures and lay it on the table and then start class - she was probably pretty old and her son from New York took her back to the city and there were no longer any classes.

When I moved to Akron, Ohio I became a public student of Wutan. As a public student I had no major obligations to Wutan so I attended 4 summers sessions of Jou's Chen's taijiquan over a 4 year period (filmed most of the material in the last 2 sessions).

However, Jou had deviated far from his original teachings that I learned under Tom and Jou's material became highly unorthodox and somewhat disappointing. However, I respected him cutting his own path but it was not a path that I could follow and my involvement with Wu Tan material started along with becoming a formal student.

Long story but I still respect Jou and his material but it has very little use for what I do e.g. Jou, directly told me, that he discounted the importance of bagua, Wu style taijiquan and any type of hard style like praying mantis - I like Jou. He was charismatic and a great person but it was simply the direction of the path he took and at that point, I no longer could and would not follow.

[wayne hansen]

So many falsehoods in Jou,s book
Took a whole lot of versions of the long form from Chinese publications
Gave no credit then said you had to learn each one and that was the system
Anyone who has learnt one solo form knows they are just variations of the one form

[wayne hansen]

I should add Yearning K Chens book was one of the first I read
It has some great stuff
Think it was the first in English
The first three books I read were invaluable
Chen s was the first ,followed by CMC and Lee Ying Arn
I thank those men for the inspiration followed by TT Liang

[taiwandeutscher]

That is what's interesting - I'm vaguely familiar (I think I recall this from practitioners at the late Jou Tsung Hwa's Tai Chi Farm also doesn't Yang Jwing-ming have this on dvd?) with this but wonder where TT Liang learned his practice - the clip is from the mainland and I wonder who might have also done this in Taiwan assuming the Taiwan first generation martial artists came from the mainland and where on the mainland did this originate from - none of the formal Yang Chengfu practitioners I know has ever did this or did it publicly

To my knowlwdge T.T. Liang learned it from Xiong Yanghe in Taiwan, who was a 3rd generation Yang stylist, and it is mentioned within the school, that he got corrected the Sanshou set under Yang Jianhou for a whole summer. AFAIK, it isn't in Yang Chengfu tradition, not in the Fu lineage either.