Teacher Profile

[Doc Stier]

These endless debates about various form sets, or the preservation of same, are rather meaningless if hardly anyone is willing to seriously practice any form set sufficiently to produce the same high level of internal energy cultivation and practical martial application skills demonstrated by those who originally created them.

[wayne hansen]

If you want to take people as experts to prove previous theories
They at least should have some degree of physical skill
I see people setting themselves up as experts stating who they learnt from
However I don’t see the skill having passed from one generation to the next

[origami_itto]

If you want to take people as experts to prove previous theories
They at least should have some degree of physical skill
I see people setting themselves up as experts stating who they learnt from
However I don’t see the skill having passed from one generation to the next

Expertise is only worth the facts that back it up.
I shared the wikipedia, it was dismissed as CIA lies.
The same information is repeated all over the internet by numerous Chen schools, but we can't believe what the Chen people say about themselves, they're clearly lying for clout.
So I produced a source of the information, which is what we're debating here, if history was decided by who was the better boxer... well honestly that's probably why we're in such a mess to begin with when it comes to understanding these things.
But I digress, I produced a source of the information that predates the CIA planted lies that were picked up by the Chen schools that got their curriculum from google that people in China produce videos demonstrating.
It has a source, T. T. Liang, with demonstrable access to quality information, most of it he just stole and translated.
And the breakdown of the form sections provided, if you examine the postures within those sequences, matches up well with the 6 roads of the old frame, which was it?? er lu? Where is Sal at with his 8 blackbelts when you need him?

Point being, we can argue for the sake of arguing, or maybe examine the numerous sources of evidence. Form, lore, and evolution of practice within disparate lineages to reverse engineer something approaching the truth of the art that transcends the window dressing of ego and posturing.

[origami_itto]

I feel like some of the sarcasm in that last post is going to miss, but oh well, thems the breaks and I got stuff to do.

[Doc Stier]

Anyone who is willing to learn an authentic major style from a legitimate teacher, and is also willing to seriously practice it long enough to receive a full transmission of the style, won't need to reverse engineer anything, because there won't be any incomplete gaps to fill in.

But very few in any generation of practitioners are willing to do that. Instead, they impatiently dabble in several different styles while floating from one teacher to another, collecting a plethora of forms, but never devote sufficient time or effort to the material they acquired to really master any of it. These are unforced errors which ultimately result in self-inflicted shortfalls which could have been avoided.

[origami_itto]

I always feel like you're calling me out in particular with that familiar little rant.

Getting and staying connected with a quality teacher can be a challenge. Over 20 years study I've given a grand total of six people money for lessons, including you. Of those I would say that two are significant, ongoing relationships. The rest of my teachers is all of you and whoever shows up to push.

I'm glad distance options are so plentiful these days. There's practically no reason you can't find quality information and instruction.

[Doc Stier]

I always feel like you're calling me out in particular with that familiar little rant.

Not so. My comments are meant for general consideration. If you feel that such comments apply to you personally, then perhaps consider taking the message to heart accordingly. That being said, you are most certainly NOT the only one here they may apply to, as what I described is a very common phenomenon among most practitioners today.

[everything]

Even though I agree with the general rant,

Some people are dabbling (in whatever hobbies they have). It will never not be the case. That's perfectly ok. All "normal" people need to do arts and sports. Most of us can never truly be good (top level), almost by definition. My middle aged rec teams are all good for our level. One guy played semi-pro and obviously has more talent and skill than the rest of us. However, we are nothing in the scheme of things.

OTOH, Messi has also had multiple coaches. Xabi Alonso was coached by multiple world class coaches and is arguably now one of them. to paraphrase graham, it's not some classic jedi master/apprentice confucian thing. all available "data" would probaby disprove this "romantic" notion. This isn't the same as dabbling, though. None of Messi's coaches would claim to have really taught him anything, even if he says he learned something.

The most talented kid I "coached" at fubol - I'd show him a "move", and he'd come back a few days later having not only mastered that move, but show me variations of it (that I probably still cannot do). He had an adult reading of the game and was coached by a former world champion in his preferred sport. This is the kind of student that's needed to go really far. If you are a coach or teacher, that's the kind of student for whom you have to honestly say "you learned everything I got ... you need to move on to a better coach/teacher/team". Some people obsess about YLC's teachers. Or about LeBron's son. Those are interesting topics, but in the end the wrong questions and assumptions.

[Bob]

Interesting
https://youtu.be/IOaRwYm-ZUg?si=Qd1oXEWRsK46y162

[origami_itto]

Interesting
https://youtu.be/IOaRwYm-ZUg?si=Qd1oXEWRsK46y162

I don't know what the chinese text says but Ray teaches that as the Yang style San shou form he learned from T. T. Liang.

[Bob]

That is what's interesting - I'm vaguely familiar (I think I recall this from practitioners at the late Jou Tsung Hwa's Tai Chi Farm also doesn't Yang Jwing-ming have this on dvd?) with this but wonder where TT Liang learned his practice - the clip is from the mainland and I wonder who might have also done this in Taiwan assuming the Taiwan first generation martial artists came from the mainland and where on the mainland did this originate from - none of the formal Yang Chengfu practitioners I know has ever did this or did it publicly

[Bao]

...also doesn't Yang Jwing-ming have this on dvd?

Yes, it looks as the exact same YJM teaches. I practiced it a long time ago (...in a galaxy far, far away. That it how it feels anyway.)

...but wonder where TT Liang learned his practice

TT Liang? Maybe he got it from Chen Yanlin? He was located in Shanghai and passed away in 1980. This here might be a clue, Liang is also mentioned: https://www.reddit.com/r/taijiquan/comm ... en_yanlin/

[Steve James]

Hmm, when it comes to origins, does Chen style have anything similar?

[wayne hansen]

The clip above is Yui Kwong from HK
It is his straight sword I practice daily
He gave me this super 8 film and a whole lot of others
Unfortunately I lost then all in a fire
The pushing was high level
There were 4 versions of him doing the san shou
Him doing the a and b with two different partners
Sword .broadsword and 108
In the pushing his students would dig their feet in and still go back 20 ft with dust clouds created
No hippy hoppy there
His 108 was different to any I have seen
His students are on YouTube so hopefully they will arise
He put out the films to go with his books
The story of how yearning k Chen got the San shou for his books is interesting and if true it means that it was in the yang family at YCF time

[Steve James]

Hmm, would you know if Yui Kwong is related to Franklin Kwong? I asked because I studied with the latter for a short time while he was in NYC. He taught in a Buddhist temple in the Bronx. If in your library you have Fundamentals of Tai Chi Chuan (published in HK), he's the model for the form photos. Alas, I loaned it away. Anyway, In this vid, he's doing the sides of the san sou.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHgSxX-kRMw