Curious about height and names in tcc

[Steve James]

When people use the wrong name "embrace tiger", they think the "cross hands" is the move. It looks like embrace, but it has no embrace intention.

Well, it's not the wrong name, depending on the intended application -which can be 'embrace' or 'carry.'

The "well-fed tiger" is the same move as "brush knee".

Understood, and that's a very traditional Yang style interpretation. Otoh, some people don't teach Embrace Tiger as if it's just BK on a slant. In their application, the (rt) bottom hand does not brush the knee, but scoops with the palm up -as if carrying something.

I'm not saying it's the right way to do the movement, only a possible explanation for the name. The important thing, imo, is relating the form to a function.

Edit: after seeing Bao's post, I'm curious what "well fed" has to do with BK or makes any difference to the form. What does a well-fed tiger do or look like? I'm just trying to find a way to explain if someone asked me.

[twocircles13]

"Grasp the sparrows tail" is obviously just a misunderstanding of, or maybe originally a joke on, "lazily tying the coat".
From Lan Zha Yi, 懒扎衣 (lazily tying the coat) to Lǎn què wěi (揽雀尾). In Chinese, the character 尾 or wěi (tail) can also be pronounced as "yǐ" as in "yǐ ba" which means also means tail. So you can see that someone with another dialect could easily misunderstand the name.

Since we're on the subject of names, I would to ask you:

Yang's Rú fēng shì bì sounds a lot like Chen's "Liù fēng sì bì" (Six Sealing Four Closing).
Yang's Bào HǔGuī Shān sounds a lot like Chen's Cover Head Push Mountain (Bào Tóu Tuī Shān).

They are corresponding moves in the form between Yang and Chen. Do you think this lends to any hints on what the names in Yang's sequences were meant originally?

Yes, If you compare the Chinese names of Chen Small Frame, Chen Large Frame, Wu/Hao, and Yang, there are a lot more of these. It is pretty informative to see the names changes and how the movements have been changes..

There’s not a table code or I would post these side by side. Head to tail just doesn’t capture the same effect.

[origami_itto]

"Grasp the sparrows tail" is obviously just a misunderstanding of, or maybe originally a joke on, "lazily tying the coat".
From Lan Zha Yi, 懒扎衣 (lazily tying the coat) to Lǎn què wěi (揽雀尾). In Chinese, the character 尾 or wěi (tail) can also be pronounced as "yǐ" as in "yǐ ba" which means also means tail. So you can see that someone which another dialect could easily misunderstand the name.

Is it obvious?

Yang Cheng Fu says the sparrow's tail is the opponent's forearm.

Like the other animal encoding it refers to the technique, he says, but he is also a proven liar.

Lan Zha Yi, as I know it from the Hao I'm just beginning to study, is equally as important in Hao style as GST is in Yang, but it is so much different. In the Hao it is a much simpler set of movements that have more in common with fair lady works the shuttles and focused more directly on internal technique (raising, connecting, opening, closing) than the tactical considerations of push hands (peng, lu, ji, an and stick, adhere, join, follow) you find in Grasp Sparrow's Tail.

The Wu family was learned and literate, to dismiss the change between the two as a misunderstanding is a bit of a stretch.

However... you look at like the Yang Jwing Ming lineage and his first movement after commencement is called Grasp Sparrow's Tail right and Left BEFORE the peng lu ji an sequence. The part that looks kind of like part wild horses mane, sometimes like diagonal flying, but different subtlety. His is MUCH more exaggerated than how I learned it. I learned it as ward off left in the Yang long form.

You can do THAT movement like the Hao Lan Zha Yi and it makes perfect sense internally and externally. More so than the current accepted normal idea of what's happening there, IMHO and it makes even MORE sense than the confused parting mane/diagonal flying/ward off that we usually consider it to be.

As far as "embrace tiger to return it to the mountain" the tiger is the opponent and the mountain is the earth. Your left hand is low to add leverage to the lower back or leg, right leg behind them, right hand across the upper body. Trip with the foot, push the right hand out and down to your hip, lift the left arm up to shoulder height. They better hope they have a good chiropractor.

[everything]

I think that was a joke.

抱 - Bao
饱 - Bao

One means hug/embrace

One means full (like after eating)

[Bao]

Is it obvious?

Of course it is.

Yang Cheng Fu says the sparrow's tail is the opponent's forearm.

Like the other animal encoding it refers to the technique, he says, but he is also a proven liar.

When and where did he say that? He should also have said that in fighting you only use a small portion of a movement/posture, not the whole posture.

YCF was illiterate and he sold his name to ghostwriters. He didn’t care if the books gave Tai Chi justice.

Lan Zha Yi, as I know it from the Hao I'm just beginning to study, is equally as important in Hao style as GST is in Yang
...
The Wu family was learned and literate, to dismiss the change between the two as a misunderstanding is a bit of a stretch.

Is it really? How so? It's called "lazily tying the coat" in Wu/Hao and in Sun style, they are derived from Shen small frame which has the same name. The Yang style "sparrow's tail" is an even more similar posture to Chen. They just continue the hand down and for some reason put it at the hip. Yang style variants can also be quite big, the rear arm quite low.

I rather think that the idea, that two different names that can be pronounced in almost exactly the same way (just one tone difference) on two similar posture, would be a pure coincidence is a bit of a stretch. Personally I don't believe in that kind of coincidences. I am sure Occam would would agree that there's a simple logical explanation to the similarities. A coincidence is just not the most obvious answer

However... you look at like the Yang Jwing Ming lineage

He learned Tai Chi from his White Crane teacher. You shouldn’t take what he does too seriously.

As far as "embrace tiger to return it to the mountain" the tiger is the opponent and the mountain is the earth. Your left hand is low to add leverage to the lower back or leg, right leg behind them, right hand across the upper body. Trip with the foot, push the right hand out and down to your hip, lift the left arm up to shoulder height. They better hope they have a good chiropractor.

There's always something poetic about crushed skulls. But as all of the postures have many possible applications, your explanation doesn’t really add up. The main idea of carrying or throwing a tiger doesn’t make sense. I am with John in this case.

[Steve James]

Afa "lazy tying coat", at least in the little Sun style I learned, the application isn't close to GBT. It's definitely not that Yang style puts the hand down for no reason. Personally, when "an" app was shown to me, it was always with at least an explanation of where the name came from. Not the history of the name, but the relation of the name to the movement. I don't know any Chen style, so I have no idea of how they apply it.

Afa Embrace or Well Tiger, I'm asking for a similar explanation of why "Well Fed." I understand the character is used, and I'm asking why? It doesn't matter whether there's a disagreement or not. I'm hoping to learn something.

[origami_itto]

Yang Cheng Fu says the sparrow's tail is the opponent's forearm.

Like the other animal encoding it refers to the technique, he says, but he is also a proven liar.

When and where did he say that?

The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan, as translated by Louis Swain, page 22. You can probably find it on Brennan.

He should also have said that in fighting you only use a small portion of a movement/posture, not the whole posture.

According to Chen Wei-Ming, in T'ai Chi Ch'uan Ta Wen, he said that doing anything BUT that was stupid. That's also on Brennan.

YCF was illiterate and he sold his name to ghostwriters. He didn’t care if the books gave Tai Chi justice.

Gotcha. YCF and CMC are also wrong because "nuh-uh"

Lan Zha Yi, as I know it from the Hao I'm just beginning to study, is equally as important in Hao style as GST is in Yang
...
The Wu family was learned and literate, to dismiss the change between the two as a misunderstanding is a bit of a stretch.

Is it really? How so? It's called "lazily tying the coat" in Wu/Hao and in Sun style, they are derived from Shen small frame which has the same name. The Yang style "sparrow's tail" is an even more similar posture to Chen. They just continue the hand down and for some reason put it at the hip. Yang style variants can also be quite big, the rear arm quite low.

It's a stretch because it's within the same line of transmission. The movement is completely different. Any similarity to the Chen form is in my opinion just further evidence of retrofitting.

I rather think that the idea, that two different names that can be pronounced in almost exactly the same way (just one tone difference) on two similar posture, would be a pure coincidence is a bit of a stretch. Personally I don't believe in that kind of coincidences. I am sure Occam would would agree that there's a simple logical explanation to the similarities. A coincidence is just not the most obvious answer

It's not pure coincidence, but it doesn't mean one is just a misunderstood name for the other. Whether initially or over time, they came to be something quite different.

However... you look at like the Yang Jwing Ming lineage

He learned Tai Chi from his White Crane teacher. You shouldn’t take what he does too seriously.

I take it all about the same. The telephone game.

As far as "embrace tiger to return it to the mountain" the tiger is the opponent and the mountain is the earth. Your left hand is low to add leverage to the lower back or leg, right leg behind them, right hand across the upper body. Trip with the foot, push the right hand out and down to your hip, lift the left arm up to shoulder height. They better hope they have a good chiropractor.

There's always something poetic about crushed skulls. But as all of the postures have many possible applications, your explanation doesn’t really add up. The main idea of carrying or throwing a tiger doesn’t make sense. I am with John in this case.

You probably have a different movement in mind. I'll see if I can get a demonstration filmed tonight.

[origami_itto]

This is close to what I mean, but I guess my understanding of the timing of the left hand is that it comes up a little later.
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... hiyong-fa/

第十七節　抱虎歸山用法
17. Application of CAPTURE THE TIGER AND SEND IT BACK TO ITS MOUNTAIN

「說明」由前式設敵人自我後面右側用右手從下部擊來或用右足來踢我即往右側轉身出右步屈膝踏實左腿伸直變虛右手隨身轉時將敵右手或足摟至右膝外左手同時由左側往前腕轉運出向敵面部按去如敵又用左手自上打來急用左手腕由敵左手腕下繞過粘住右手同時圓轉提起用腕向敵肘上臂部貼住同時两手往懷內左側合收抱囘則敵人自站不定此時要鬆肩坐肘左足實右足虛
Explanation:
From the previous posture, if an opponent from behind me on my right side uses his right hand to strike me from below, or kicks me with his right foot, I promptly turn my body to the right side and step out with my right foot, bending the knee to sit full as my left leg straightens and becomes empty. While my body turns, my right hand brushes aside his hand or foot to the right until beyond my right knee. My left hand at the same time goes forward from my left side, the wrist rotating, to come out with a push to his face. If he then uses his left hand to strike from above, I quickly use my left wrist to coil around from below his left wrist and stick to it. My right hand at the same time lifts in an arc to stick on top of his elbow with my wrist. At the same time, my hands draw back embracing toward my chest on my left side. The result is that the opponent’s stance will naturally be destabilized. It is important for me to loosen my shoulders and sit my elbows. My left foot is now full, my right foot empty.

Also Bao... be more curious and less judgmental

[Bao]

Afa Embrace or Well Tiger, I'm asking for a similar explanation of why "Well Fed." I understand the character is used, and I'm asking why? It doesn't matter whether there's a disagreement or not. I'm hoping to learn something.

What's the reason for a tiger to return home? A full tummy. It's the whole body turning motion. In my yang form we turn the body, not 180°, but we turn around and face another direction.

Gotcha. YCF and CMC are also wrong because "nuh-uh"

Can't say YCF was wrong. I have no idea how it happened. But there's something similar with CMC's 13 Chapters, it was a forgery. CMC didn't write that book.

[origami_itto]

Afa Embrace or Well Tiger, I'm asking for a similar explanation of why "Well Fed." I understand the character is used, and I'm asking why? It doesn't matter whether there's a disagreement or not. I'm hoping to learn something.

What's the reason for a tiger to return home? A full tummy. It's the whole body turning motion. In my yang form we turn the body, not 180°, but we turn around and face another direction.

Gotcha. YCF and CMC are also wrong because "nuh-uh"

Can't say YCF was wrong. I have no idea how it happened. But there's something similar with CMC's 13 Chapters, it was a forgery. CMC didn't write that book.

Check the characters I posted above, check the descriptions. That's Dong Ying Jie, but YCF says explicitly it's an embrace. Going home with a full belly isn't a very martial idea. The tiger generally indicates a fierce opponent and the rest of the name indicates what to do to them. Ride them, shoot them, strike them, etc.

I believe Shaolin in particular refers to themselves as the tiger in movements like "Black tiger steals the heart". Taijiquan defends AGAINST tigers.

Also, check these pronunciations. Do you think the sound is similar enough there would be easy confusion between native speakers. (You can push the speaker button to hear it)
https://translate.google.com/?sl=zh-TW& ... =translate

[everything]

lol "well fed" is a sort of homophone joke. I assume johnwang is just being funny, and it's not a running joke since (pick your historical figure)

bao4 vs. bao3

[everything]

this is like one of those lost in translation telephone games and at the end, everything is just all wrong

[ParadoxTeapot]

He learned Tai Chi from his White Crane teacher. You shouldn’t take what he does too seriously.

According to his website, he only learned Yang Taiji for 2.5 years under Kao Tao. Later, he learned Long Fist from Li, Mao-Ching.

He spent 13 years learning White Crane under Cheng Gin Gsao, and he also says that 60-70% of his Qinna methods come from his White Crane teacher. The other comes from his Long Fist teacher who studied Qinna.

Technically, he doesn't have a lineage, but even if that doesn't mean anything to some people, learning Taijiquan for only 2.5 years is... not much.

To quote someone else: "I know and still socialize with a few of his tai chi guys. By that, I mean students who took the tai chi track but didn't really do any of the Shaolin. Most of them say they wish they had done the White Crane, because that really is the core of what he does."

Dr. Yang was born and raised in Taiwan which is close to Fujian Province - where White Crane originated from. Taiwan is a great place to learn White Crane.

He also wrote "Due to my understanding of White Crane style I have a unique understanding of the essence of my Taijiquan. It was from this understanding that my Taijiquan books were written." His view of Taijiquan is heavily influenced through the lens of White Crane which is really what he's best at. And Tai Chi students have regretted not learning White Crane from him.

[wayne hansen]

I was lucky enough for my tai chi coming from Malaysia
They were all fluent at English one being an English Professor
Things were explained in great detail and why the names were used
Wild horse flings it’s mane an example
Your torso is the horses neck
Your arm it’s mane
This is to show the wild abrupt energy used
Slanted Flying or the name I learnt in another art one single bird leaves the universe is often confused with wild horse
The two names show how the energy is used in the two quite different techniques
If you look at YMJ first book on tai chi you can see it is someone using it like white crane
Carry tiger shows the double embrace of cross hands securing the well fed tiger and the turn to 45 degrees to the rear
I also like to see the right arm raising from the brush knee as the tiger closing its jaws or claws and rolling over into the roll back
In a lot of older forms such as the Wu /ng after cross hands brush knee is done 45 to the front before turning 180 degrees to the rear 45
If you understand both Wu and yang you can see GST is basically the same and most other forms are similar to Wu way of doing it

[Steve James]

What's the reason for a tiger to return home? A full tummy. It's the whole body turning motion. In my yang form we turn the body, not 180°, but we turn around and face another direction.

Iinm, all Yang styles (except the competition ones) turn and end up facing around 135 degrees to the rear right. Now, "how" to get to that point differs among styles -and practitioners. Imo, that's because there's no single application. And that's ok.

Still, how does the tiger get the full tummy after cross hands. Or, are the form sections meals? If the movement is just a slanted BKTS, why the metaphor? Explaining it by saying it had a full tummy is like saying it was satiated. After a meal, tigers lie down to sleep.