Curious about height and names in tcc

[Bao]

You embrace the tiger to return it to the mountain.

The mountain is the ground.

Again, your assumption is based on wrong premises. You imply that all applications must go to the ground but this is not correct. A movement was not created for a specific application, there are many different possible applications of every movement. You can even take out smaller parts of a movement and create applications on them.

Think about a specific move as this one or BK, Single whip or any of them as Chinese characters. Any Chinese character is symbolic but also abstract and vague in meaning. They are contextual, they get the precise meaning when they are put in a sentence in a specific context. A Chinese character can be used in many different ways, it can be a noun, a verb, adjective, or vastly change meaning depending on how you use it.

In the same way, any Tai Chi move imply a throw, take-down, qinna, fist or palm strike, etc. They can also include things as elbow attacks, possibilities to kick or use the knees. So there is no fixed direction or any fixed idea how a specific move should be used.

A well fed animal is in no mood to fight. You're saying it has a full belly and is going home to sleep. What is the martial applicability of that idea?

What is the martial applicability of a fair lady weaves at shuttle, slanted flying or playing the lute?

From the name well fed tiger returns to mountain I have the picture of a Tiger's body turning around. You showed an application that included a quite strong turning of your body, so why is it so hard for you to put these things together? A tiger turning its body and you turning your body?

I like the poetry of Tai Chi names. In Tai Chi, you don't want to have pictures of violence or any way of making effort. Tai Chi teaches that natural, unrestrained body movements are the most powerful. To understand the the spirit of Tai Chi, you need to get rid of aggression and "trying to use strength". Those things will lock your mind and body, and hinder your body from moving efficiently. So a well fed tiger returns to mountain is much better and makes more sense from a Tai Chi perspective than "throw your enemy's head violently against the ground." You just don't want to get into that mindset as it locks your body and mind. That's not Tai Chi.

I dunno, it's not important except that you're wrong.

...

[wayne hansen]

Why get caught up in semantics about what the names mean when both applications are silly and don’t even follow the form

[origami_itto]

You embrace the tiger to return it to the mountain.

The mountain is the ground.

Again, your assumption is based on wrong premises. You imply that all applications must go to the ground but this is not correct.

I don't know why you would think I implied that. I in no way believe it.

A movement was not created for a specific application, there are many different possible applications of every movement. You can even take out smaller parts of a movement and create applications on them.
...
In the same way, any Tai Chi move imply a throw, take-down, qinna, fist or palm strike, etc. They can also include things as elbow attacks, possibilities to kick or use the knees. So there is no fixed direction or any fixed idea how a specific move should be used.

I agree. When I talk about "application ideas", I learned that concept from Ray. It's not that "this is THE purpose for THIS posture". As I mentioned in another thread, I quoted Yang Cheng Fu via Chen Wei Ming who said anything but using the smallest part of the circle in actual application is stupid. It's not about the gross movements. It's not about choreography.

The "application idea" is a way to guide the mind, movement, and energy of the posture in solo practice. In this case, the use of the waist, knee trapping, the right arm embracing, pushing and pulling, the left arm pulling and lifting. The teaching is that you can use whatever makes sense to you because you need to be able to use it. This application follows the description in the literature, though I know he didn't get it from the books.

Other teachers don't follow this practice, and that's fine. I find it's pretty helpful, personally. Take what works for you and leave the rest.

You can look at Liang De Hua's application for that same energy applied laterally in push hands.

A well fed animal is in no mood to fight. You're saying it has a full belly and is going home to sleep. What is the martial applicability of that idea?

What is the martial applicability of a fair lady weaves at shuttle, slanted flying or playing the lute?

From the name well fed tiger returns to mountain I have the picture of a Tiger's body turning around. You showed an application that included a quite strong turning of your body, so why is it so hard for you to put these things together? A tiger turning its body and you turning your body?

It's not about it being hard, I don't know why you always have to make the discussions about me. Let's keep it on the interesting stuff. It doesn't matter, why does everyone insist on getting so personal about it?

Fair lady and play pipa describe the arm movements accurately.

The posture names take different functions. They aren't a priori labels that exist outside of context. They can communicate meaning on multiple layers within a transmission, or not.

But you're absolutely right, I'm wrong, I concede. Tired of the topic.

[Steve James]

Why get caught up in semantics about what the names mean when both applications are silly and don’t even follow the form

Could you find us an application online that isn't silly?

I think Bao is right that any form can be applied in several different ways. I don't consider any application that works to be wrong, even if the name or the way 'we' do it is different.

[BruceP]

TJQ is 8 and Five

They're ideas that aren't stuck in a form

It only takes about 6 months to put them into the body as internal method

The form sequences that are universal across all styles have the 8 and Five. The changes contained in those sequences can be put into the body in less than a year if the person sharing them knows what they're doing. If the person sharing them knows what they're doing, the learning can be tested from the first day and every time after that whenever two people practice their tjq together.

Once a person has learned how to put tjq into the body, any form can be understood from the fractal understanding that is gained through that learning. They can then practice with different tjq people/styles/'teachers because proper training and time spent takes care of everything else.

Applications as we see them presented on the tubez is fantasy and the ultimate larp if they don't arise naturally in the testing. Once a person discovers their affinity to affect an 'application' in the testing, its kinesthetic imprint broadens the awareness one gains in the testing so that the 'application' can be repeated under different circumstances having to do with varying configurations of intent-to-intent interaction. Following is leading and leading is following.

I don't know if there is a CIMA equivalent to the concept of Tokui Waza, but that's kind of the idea that one discovers as they continue to test their learning. It transcends technique or set-up and has nothing to do with mechanics or techniques because there are no techniques in tjq- it just happens.


WW mentioned "the essence of movement" the other day in one of his posts. That's all there really is, to work toward the goal of 'application'.

[Steve James]

Well, it'd be nice to see some real demonstrations. Otherwise, it's like Santa Claus.

One thing's for sure, there are very few tcc videos without multiple dislikes. So, posting anything is an invitation for criticism. Everybody can tell us why it's wrong or wouldn't work or not the way it should be done.

Anyway, anyone's who talking on the internet has survived. So, their training has been good enough. Teachers can worry about passing along a tradition or keeping an art pure. Students need to learn what works and what doesn't for themselves. Starting from where they are, not from mastery.

[everything]

much as I am not a fan of "5 elements", seems like those name are a little "better" in xingyiquan. same with in baguazhang ("xyz palm"). yes yes, xingyiquan has "animals"... probably the same confusion

[Bao]

It's not about it being hard, I don't know why you always have to make the discussions about me. Let's keep it on the interesting stuff. It doesn't matter, why does everyone insist on getting so personal about it?

I didn't even mention the word "hard". I have no idea what you are arguing about.

I don't know why you would take it personal. You didn't understand the application of a tiger turning around. I am just surprised about your lack of fantasy. ( now THAT was personal )

But you're absolutely right, I'm wrong, I concede. Tired of the topic.

I never said you are wrong, I just tried to present my view as you asked.

First you say I am wrong, then you say I am right. Can't you make up your mind?

(Why does it have to be about being right or wrong?)

Well, it'd be nice to see some real demonstrations. Otherwise, it's like Santa Claus.

Define "real". Personally I wouldn't accept anything else as a street fight without rules as "real". A demonstration is a demonstration. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Steve James]

Define "real". Personally I wouldn't accept anything else as a street fight without rules as "real". A demonstration is a demonstration. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well, there are plenty of actual life or death fights on the internet. Usually, it's by people who will discuss how to avoid being the one killed. That's the thing, though. There's one about a knife v empty hand encounter in NYC. Btw, the unarmed guy was killed. Now, show me one where someone did something like tcc (or cma) and survived, and we can talk about that.

Absolutely, all we usually see are demonstrations. Yet, we constantly hear people this or that wouldn't work -implying that their method would. It's fantasy either way. In fact, another issue is that having some training may get someone into a high risk situation because of their over-confidence.

[Bao]

Absolutely, all we usually see are demonstrations. Yet, we constantly hear people this or that wouldn't work -implying that their method would. It's fantasy either way.

Why do people even expect things done in demos to work the same way in "reality"? Beats me. The naysayers often show themselves just as clueless as what they think the demonstrators are.

In fact, another issue is that having some training may get someone into a high risk situation because of their over-confidence.

Totally agree. If you think you can fight or not, you should learn something about real-life violence. As in never expecting to be able to block a knife.

[origami_itto]

fact, another issue is that having some training may get someone into a high risk situation because of their over-confidence.

A little learning is a dangerous thing.
Drink deep, or taste not the pierean spring.
For there shallow draughts do but intoxicate the brain
and only drinking deeply, largely sobers us again.

[wayne hansen]

There are 2 types of applications in tai chi
1 classical. Done in a way to show how the principle of tai chi are used and taught in that movement
2 practical for want of a better word That is how it is used in real self defence on the street

I will add a third
3 spontaneous Natural movement that arises out of constant training of the first two

The thing about the two clips shown they are none of the 3
Apart from the fact that they both loose balance

I was asked if I could show better ones on the net
Am sure I could if I spent hours trolling thru YouTube
That’s why I come here I get you guys to do that

[BruceP]

Well, it'd be nice to see some real demonstrations. Otherwise, it's like Santa Claus.

One thing's for sure, there are very few tcc videos without multiple dislikes. So, posting anything is an invitation for criticism. Everybody can tell us why it's wrong or wouldn't work or not the way it should be done.

Anyway, anyone's who talking on the internet has survived. So, their training has been good enough. Teachers can worry about passing along a tradition or keeping an art pure. Students need to learn what works and what doesn't for themselves. Starting from where they are, not from mastery.

Yeah, testing is all on the same level of fantasy as the demos shown in this thread. Unless it's against knife attacks and other blood-and-guts types of assault scenarios, it's all Santa Clause, right?

[Steve James]

Yeah, testing is all on the same level of fantasy as the demos shown in this thread. Unless it's against knife attacks and other blood-and-guts types of assault scenarios, it's all Santa Clause, right?

Santa Claus because people talk about it but we never see it. But, yeah, total fantasy until someone is really trying to kill you. If you haven't had that happen, then you have no idea what you'll do. The closest you can get is with live sharp blades at speed. Even then, cuts are accidental.

Anyway, I don't think you're going to find many videos of tcc/ima people fighting for their lives. If you do, I guarantee someone is going to criticize their tcc. To which I'd say, if you won, and the guy's disabled or worse, turn around and keep walking. If you didn't win, we might never find out. Just someone who isn't posting. In these blood and guts situations, there's a winner and a loser. We often don't hear the loser say "that didn't work."

A guy just got stabbed around the corner last week. Nobody even saw the knife. Google "stabbing east 165th street, Bronx." There'll be a couple, maybe last weeks. Don't ask whether what I do in a tcc class prepares me. I don't give a flying bibby. I have lots of blades: kay bars, cold steels, small folders. I only ever carry a Swiss Army. The main reason is I don't believe in knife defense. I believe in knife offense. For self defense, I prefer avoidance. If someone randomly decides to take me out, very little I could do. That's my reality. But, hey, I'm surviving with what I have, not a fantasy of what I should be.

[origami_itto]

It's mostly LARP.
We're more likely to be taken out by heart disease and cancer than bandits. Slips and falls. Lapses in attention while driving.

Honestly, men, we're more likely to take ourselves out, have you seen the suicide statistics?