Small weapons in CMA?

[Bhassler]

Has anyone come across training specifically for small weapons in CMA? I'm thinking about small knives, saps, knuckles, pocket sticks, etc. (or historical equivalents). I've seen some antique examples of small defensive tools, but the usage of same does not appear to be part of most CMA curriculum.

[windwalker]

Yin Bagua, Judge's Pens

"Yin Fu was known for his preference for Needle type weapons. There are many variations of these weapons and most Yin style lineages have forms for them. "Needle" or "Pen" or "Thorn/Piercer" weapons are not exclusive to Bagua and are found all over China in many if not most styles. Other systems known for their extensive use of needle weapons are XinYi LiuHe, and XingYi. "

[Bob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ2cfnOJslQ

Bagua Shuangyue (Ziwu Yuanyang Yue)
Yin Fu-Gong Baotian-Liu Yunqiao

This pair of double axes are concealed weapons. They are smaller in size, easy to carry and hide, and can be used to surprise the enemy. They are slightly different from those commonly seen, which are larger in shape and easier for the performer.

This was made by the association in the past and was not sold to the public.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohHLPBs9ucM

Bagua Hard Palm (Judge Pen)

Try to use the judge's pen to demonstrate our Bagua Hard Palm (easy to use)
The Bagua Hard Palm (Yingshou) of our sect is really a special kind of boxing. It is not only smooth in moves and combines hardness and softness, but it can also be practiced with various weapons of the sect. The more common ones are Shuangyue (Ziwu Yuanyang Yue) and Double hook, I recently tried to practice with acupuncture needles and judge pens, which is also very suitable.

The judge pen in the video is a new product that has just been completed a week ago. It is not very suitable for dancing. In addition, I strained my calf a week ago, so the movements are not very smooth. Please forgive me.

[wayne hansen]

A few years ago I had a student who was graded highly in both lameco and illustrissimo systems
He had just spent time with a well known teacher who was training him in Tulisan knife fighting
He showed me what he had learned and I showed him how the straight sword ,broadsword and San shou(with both weapons and empty fist ) taught all you needed to know about knife fighting
I am not a knife fighter but have faced two people with knives ans survived
My student went back and showed the teacher what I have shown him
He then rang me and asked if I would come and show the teacher
I am not saying this to blow my own trumpet Just to show if you understand your art it is all there
Pole,spear,broadsword and straight sword have it all

[edededed]

Small weapons from common to rare found in Chinese martial arts (that I can think of):

- Daggers (bishou)
- Emei Piercers (emeici)
- Judge Pens (panguanbi)
- Iron Chopsticks (tiekuaizi)
- Through Maces (tongchui)

[Graculus]

Most definitely, and my teacher even designed some himself. If the style teaches you to fight, these kinds of weapons can be readily used, but developing the ability to use them with the fa-jin of your style is important to get the most out of them.

Old school teachers all had their favorites, many of which remained secrets except for their favored students.

Graculus
https://ichijoji.blogspot.com

[Bhassler]

Most definitely, and my teacher even designed some himself. If the style teaches you to fight, these kinds of weapons can be readily used, but developing the ability to use them with the fa-jin of your style is important to get the most out of them.

Old school teachers all had their favorites, many of which remained secrets except for their favored students.

Graculus
https://ichijoji.blogspot.com

Yeah-- experience and reason both tell me that small/hidden weapons should be part and parcel with empty hand stuff, but was wondering how widespread it was for people to actually be taught and or train the specifics.

Just to show if you understand your art it is all there
Pole,spear,broadsword and straight sword have it all

While I generally agree, the statement is kind of meaningless. Lots of people will pick up a weapon (small or large) and draw correlations between weapon and empty hand, but when you see them move it's apparent that it's all theory and they are missing key differences in terms of utility. And it's fine to say it's all there, but if people don't see it or aren't practicing it, then it's not really there any more. Not talking about you specifically, just the general case. As I said, I see lots of things in there, but was wondering how widespread the actual practice was.

Thanks for the replies.

[wayne hansen]

Yes I agree if people don’t practice or are unable to understand it is not there

[twocircles13]

I agree.

The adage, “You fight the way you train,” has some corollaries.

"You fight with what you train." This can only be true if you’ve sufficiently trained, otherwise, you are really fighting untrained.

"If you don’t train for specific types of fighting, you fight untrained." Unless you are overconfident, you might be a little better off, because of movement training and conditioning, but only a little better off.

When weapons come out, you are facing a killer and are fighting for your life. It is unlikely that you will walk away uninjured. This is actually true in empty-hand, self-defense situations too, but a lot of people have the preconception that is just a bit of sport or are somehow proving themselves. That attitude can get you or someone else killed. So, you need to train accordingly and adjust your attitude.

To the OP’s question though. As has been said, Baguazhang has several small weapons it specifically trains. Most of my Chinese weapon training has been Dao and larger. My small weapons training has been Indonesian with some Filipino influence.

[BruceP]

Lots of people will pick up a weapon (small or large) and draw correlations between weapon and empty hand, but when you see them move it's apparent that it's all theory and they are missing key differences in terms of utility

Empty hand carrying over to weapons can be quickly made complimentary to one's current 'understanding' of what a weapon represents - especially if they haven't done any training with weapons.

Hand someone a long-handled spade and ask them how they'd use it to defend themselves. Tell them to hit something with it as though they were hitting an attacker.

Conduct the same experiment with a framing or claw hammer.

How would you all posting in this thread approach the use of those tools as self-defense items?

[Bhassler]

Yup, I remember you talking about the relation between tools and IMA mechanics years ago, and it's part of what led me to my question. It was going from sword to truncheon to bayonet to palm-sized weapons in rapid succession that kind of made certain things click for me, and made me think that small weapons are not just an add-in, but quite possibly more integral to the formation of the arts themselves (along with swords and spears, etc.), similar to how it is in Silat and other styles. I think it has to be more that just picking up the tool and asking "how would you hit someone with this?"-- there have to be the follow up probing questions, like what do they do in response and how you account for that, etc. That's where you can see the difference between folks that have learned in theory and those who have actually been there. I'm (thankfully) in the theory category when it comes to the type of lethal force situations that make the differences really important, but I'm also not claiming expertise or teaching anyone.

I worked landscaping in the past, and ever since then have felt that the short handled drain spade is just about the most formidable non-weapon weapon I can think of...

[wayne hansen]

The problem here is people haven’t learnt the 4 tai chi weapons ant their San shou sets

[Bhassler]

The problem here is people haven’t learnt the 4 tai chi weapons ant their San shou sets

Not really-- at the end of the day, those are simply more forms that can be extremely useful or completely empty, just like any other form. A bigger problem might be if people don't have access (through circumstance or choice) to individuals with real-world experience of whatever it is they think they're training for. As always, it's caveat emptor in terms of deciding if someone's "real world experience" is valid for the goals at hand, or not.

[Steve James]

I worked landscaping in the past, and ever since then have felt that the short handled drain spade is just about the most formidable non-weapon weapon I can think of...

I was going to write that a carpenter who spends 40+ hours working with a hammer will be a formidable adversary, as would an ironworker with a spud wrench, or a welder with a chip hammer, or a bricklayer with his trowel, or sugarcane worker with a cane knife.

Imo, it's very much like a Gurkha with a kukri. The big difference being that a Gurkha kid will grow using their knives. Constant Practice with even the most common implements will lead to some skill. Of course, there's the cook or butcher with a knife that doesn't dull because he never hits bone. Quite an important skill or knowledge when it comes to blades, jmo.

Anyway, in cultures that use knives extensively, there'll always be techniques developed out of the need to defeat techniques used by known adversaries. We may have potential or random adversaries, but we don't really want them to attack or want to attack them. Probably the best place to learn would be where the techniques were developed out of necessity. But, it'd be possible, imo, to adapt fma two person exercises to a ph-like format.

[origami_itto]

I worked landscaping in the past, and ever since then have felt that the short handled drain spade is just about the most formidable non-weapon weapon I can think of...

Short, sharp shovel is the weapon of choice for trench warfare. Best for close cramped quarters.
https://www.reddit.com/r/history/commen ... h_warfare/

Then your plain ol machete is the best midrange melee tool. Cheap, made for heavy impact.

Past that, I dunno, pitchfork? The spear is the king of the battlefield. If I have that kind of room to work I'd at least improvise one. Always wanted to go nuts in a pool hall.