Zhong Ding - Understanding Force

[origami_itto]

Thank you for reading.

I can't find where I mentioned retreating, can you point it out for me?

[twocircles13]

Thank you for reading.

I can't find where I mentioned retreating, can you point it out for me?

I realize now that was an assumption on my part. Let’s see if my assumptions were correct.

I yield, and when the enemy’s force is spent, I counterattack.... The great initial force is absorbed into the trampoline, and when it is spent, it is returned into the body that delivered it and the trampoline returns to a neutral state. In physics this sort of interaction is known as elastic force. It’s the same force at play with a bouncing rubber ball.

The way I have been shown yielding and neutralization by other taiji practitioners is, the opponent pushes my arm. I absorb his force by allowing him to shift me in my stance. This loads his energy into my rear leg and muscles (or spine or arms or all these). When his energy is spent, I release the energy back into him reversing the flow and direction.

This shifting of weight along the opponent’s path without an advance forward is essentially a retreat.

If you have another method, I would love to banish my assumptions.

[Bao]

The way I have been shown yielding and neutralization by other taiji practitioners is, the opponent pushes my arm. I absorb his force by allowing him to shift me in my stance. This loads his energy into my rear leg and muscles (or spine or arms or all these)

....

If you have another method, I would love to banish my assumptions.

That's how beginners are taught and how many intermediate practitioners play.
The problem is that your opponent can follow your movements and fill in the gap.
A good opponent will trap you and won’t let you escape.
I prefer to direct his force away directly upon touch and connect with his center as soon as possible.
Everything is about timing, so it's better to always be one step ahead.
Also, I don't shift my weight very much, I prefer to keep a forward stance and the weight in my front foot.

[origami_itto]

I don't know how to explain it other than peng and reeling silk.

Not saying I have it 100% of the time but when it's there it's not running.

Keep the energy ready, not butting, not running away. Compress and expand.

[origami_itto]

The way I have been shown yielding and neutralization by other taiji practitioners is, the opponent pushes my arm. I absorb his force by allowing him to shift me in my stance. This loads his energy into my rear leg and muscles (or spine or arms or all these)

....

If you have another method, I would love to banish my assumptions.

That's how beginners are taught and how many intermediate practitioners play.
The problem is that your opponent can follow your movements and fill in the gap.
A good opponent will trap you and won’t let you escape.

Yep, this. If you run, I follow until, as previously mentioned, you run out of places to go.

I prefer to direct his force away directly upon touch and connect with his center as soon as possible.

I don't care about center, the center will come along.
EDIT: I know we differ on this and I haven't been able to quite articulate it, but, contextually and conditionally, I'd say that I'm connecting to their tension. That's the handle I use to move the rest, regardless of where their physical center or centerline or center of gravity might be. The tension connects me to their "center" the way gravity connects ME to the center of the earth, and they're providing it, unless they're collapsed, at which point, yeah, hunting for something to find purchase on.
When I push on my teacher, he doesn't run away or try to hide his center, he uses my tension to take away my "a place to stand" as Archimedes might say. The coolest little tricks seem to come from dynamically changing the classes and arrangements of levers in the system.

Everything is about timing, so it's better to always be one step ahead.

Yep.

Also, I don't shift my weight very much, I prefer to keep a forward stance and the weight in my front foot.

Yep.

[Bao]

I know we differ on this and I haven't been able to quite articulate it, but, contextually and conditionally, I'd say that I'm connecting to their tension. That's the handle I use to move the rest, regardless of where their physical center or centerline or center of gravity might be. The tension connects me to their "center" the way gravity connects ME to the center of the earth, and they're providing it, unless they're collapsed, at which point, yeah, hunting for something to find purchase on.
When I push on my teacher, he doesn't run away or try to hide his center, he uses my tension to take away my "a place to stand" as Archimedes might say. The coolest little tricks seem to come from dynamically changing the classes and arrangements of levers in the system.

Well, the problem is that some people just don't give away tensions and others can be very connected, but still flexible and following. Your game shouldn't depend on him.

I prefer to not think about "tension," or to wait until he does some mistake. If you connect to his center, you can automatically connect to his roots/feet. So connecting to his center is to connect to his balance, you basically control his whole structure.

Obviously some people don't give away their centers that easily, or the control thereof...

[origami_itto]

Hey man, play your "game" any way you like.
So long as you're winning, you're getting your reward, right?

[everything]

so very superficially

step in almost linearly and "win"

circle and "win"

follow and "win"

on the "inside" it's the same, though. "take center" also the same. what Bao says sounds like "xingyi". on a tangent, we should talk about xingyi and bagua a lot more, taijiquan a lot less

[Bao]

Hey man, play your "game" any way you like.
So long as you're winning, you're getting your reward, right?

I am not really thinking in the terms of "winning".

Most of all I try to control my balance and centerline all of the time, or the integrity of my tai chi shenfa. I try to control my opponents balance and the whole game for the same reason. The rest is superficial.

so very superficially

step in almost linearly and "win"

circle and "win"

follow and "win"

on the "inside" it's the same, though. "take center" also the same. what Bao says sounds like "xingyi". on a tangent, we should talk about xingyi and bagua a lot more, taijiquan a lot less

It's not about linearity or "attacking" the centerline. It's about feeling your opponents balance and controlling it, and also sinking and mentally staying lower than his center. Hard to describe.... But when you touch a lesser skilled opponent, he should be automatically become unrooted, unstable, unbalanced. You force him to stay either on his toes or heels. Then you can throw him away effortlessly. It's all about adjusting to his posture sensitivity, tingjin, it's very different from attacking linearly.

[origami_itto]

Here let me be Bao for a minute.

It's not about linearity or "attacking" the centerline. It's about feeling your opponents balance and controlling it, and also sinking and mentally staying lower than his center. Hard to describe.... But when you touch a lesser skilled opponent, he should be automatically become unrooted, unstable, unbalanced. You force him to stay either on his toes or heels. Then you can throw him away effortlessly. It's all about adjusting to his posture sensitivity, tingjin, it's very different from attacking linearly.

But not EVERYBODY will be lesser skilled, and then that won't work.

[everything]

yes, we're definitely interested in "more skilled" but if someone is "more skilled", those angles, mechanics, blah, blah, blah seem incredibly irrelevant (and that is the really interesting part) ... getting back to the superficial movement aspects, i'm describing xingyiquan as more "linear", bagua as "circular", taijiquan as "follow first" ... if you are "equally skilled" ... yeah, then what? "win" 50/50 ratio?

[Bao]

if you are "equally skilled" ... yeah, then what? "win" 50/50 ratio?

Again, I don't see it as "winning" or "loosing". The person who is better at controlling his own center will always be the "better" player. The rest is unimportant.

[origami_itto]

if you are "equally skilled" ... yeah, then what? "win" 50/50 ratio?

Again, I don't see it as "winning" or "loosing". The person who is better at controlling his own center will always be the "better" player. The rest is unimportant.

I guess my point is that everything has a counter. Every action has a neutralization, every attack creates an opening. Even the nonspecific intention of attack can be used against me.

So "that doesn't work all the time" or "that doesn't work against somebody good" okay, yeah, sure, nothing works against everybody all the time. I mean, show me what does.

But then it's a question of the intention of the activity and the skills you're trying to cultivate.

[Bao]

okay, yeah, sure, nothing works against everybody all the time. I mean, show me what does.

But then it's a question of the intention of the activity and the skills you're trying to cultivate.

Everyone is different for sure. But I am not much concerned about “what” works in the sense of skills or methods. I am more concerned about how I keep the integrity of my Tai Chi shenfa against who. There’s a place where things work naturally all by itself. And the further away you go away from it, the less your Tai Chi works. That place is within you. Tai Chi is more about being than doing. The results of what you do is a consequence of how well you understand “being”.

[everything]

slightly more in agreement with Bao about it. very "taoist" answer.

it's not about if you push me, i pull you, and 1000 variations of it (although judo and to a lesser extent bjj imho are super fun in that way ... very much a "technical game". but ultimately that's just not as interesting (according to me) as the "fundamental being / principle". the flowers are nice but the roots are more compelling). otoh it's all pretty interesting