everything wrote:when we talk about something even more "unusual" (mechanics stuff plus energy body), i think we can say scientists (and teachers and students) know even less of what's happening in the body and brain. a skilled practitioner can maybe tell us the "how" but can't put the "catch ball skill" "into our mind/body". i can explain in words how to do the "la croqueta" or "elastico", or maybe even in video, but you cannot "get it" until after a bunch of reps, including mostly failed attempts. and that is pretty easy "mechanical sport stuff". taijiquan/IMA is so much more difficult
In science, a law describes a natural phenomenon, and
a theory describes how and why that phenomenon occurs. The more accurate we can make our theories, the more work we can get out of the natural phenomenon. Sometimes I find we talk about things one way but then do something different when it comes time to apply them.
everything wrote:i don't get the joke. or is that a more serious question?
One thing several masters of Taijiquan and other combat related disciplines sometimes echo is "When training alone, imagine you're standing before an enemy, and when standing before an enemy, imagine you are training alone"
We can slice and argue that strategy forever, but what it's pointing at in Taijiquan is the internalization of the practice so let's stick to that and not get too much into the weeds of game theory, I beg of the crowd.
Adam Mizner words it kind of differently and forgets about the imaginary enemy, "maintain conditions" which are the "cause" he says produces the "effects". He warns against chasing the "effects" without conditioning the "cause" and replacing "authentic skill" with the 'counterfeit near enemy" in order to achieve a victory.
Bao is right here:
Bao wrote: I am more concerned about how I keep the integrity of my Tai Chi shenfa against who. There’s a place where things work naturally all by itself. And the further away you go away from it, the less your Tai Chi works. That place is within you. Tai Chi is more about being than doing.
But then in describing application he talks of an active searching process of finding and connecting to the center.
That's what I find irrelevant and erroneous.
Depending on the activity, because sometimes in training I want to do it wrong so my partner can get it right, and push hands is ultimately a training activity meant to cultivate certain skills.
So with specificity, when I'm trying to unbalance someone and not be unbalanced simultaneously, I've found the most errors when I try to make them do something. When I attack, I lose. Sure, if they are a beginner, I can harass them and they no can defend, but skilled players, when I attack, use that to unbalance me.
I'm doing everything right, but I still lose.
Okay, so let's not attack, let's just avoid their attack, oh no, I run out of room to run and I'm collapsed.
But they told me to yield! I guess the path out of danger isn't running away from it.
Maybe I should try this Zhong Ding. Maybe I receive the force they are bringing and meet it with a balancing force.
It seems like, when I do that, my muscles can stay loose, but stretch a little. My shape deforms a little, don't call it a structure. A kind of pressure builds up across my whole body. When that external force lets up, I can release that pressure and maybe add a little of my own.
It seems like, when I do that, "my center" and "their center" disappear. We become "one qi". We have a common center. The tension of their attack connects us together, but since I am using Zhong Ding, I command that common center.
When I get tense, then we lose that connection and it becomes two bulls clashing, or chasing a ball, through song I join and maintain control.
twocircles13 wrote:Here is my approach to taijiquan training.
First path training:
Foundations - Form - Push hands training - These are synergistic and feed each other in development and improvement.
I can't argue one bit with that. Push hands informs form.
We are primarily talking about push hands in this thread. Push hands competition is not part of Taijiquan training. Although one may participate in push hands competitions in order learn from the energy and skills of as many people as one can, training to win push hands events is counter to taiji training.
I suppose we are, yes, but I don't do push hands competition.
The ideal for push hands training is lose, learn, and never lose that way again. In reality, there is usually a lot more losing before learning occurs.
People say this, but they invest a lot of ego in their "push game" so to speak.
I think the community helps cultivate the mindset honestly. There is so much insecurity wrapped up in these studies it's just mind blowing.
I think of it like pickup basketball, not church. Yeah it improves every part of my life, but putting it on too high of an enshrined pedestal debases us both. My sword is a weapon made for use not a museum piece to admire as it sits on a wall.
And, as someone said earlier, I usually need to sleep on a new lesson before I can use it well.
We call it percolation, or at least a form of it.
As I learn a push-hands lesson, I carry it into my form and foundation training, so I am engraining it into my movement. This is the Practical Method, but I don’t see why anyone who wants to improve their taiji skills can’t use it.
I like what I see of The Practical Method {tm} although one time I saw a video where he said "we don't stretch because you don't get time to stretch before a fight" so I'm like... okay? But neither here nor there.
Branding aside, what you describe is just the fundamental method. I mean it's the same process they lay out in the chop socky shaw bros flicks, ain't it?
You run into something in conflict, you
use the theory of your art to try to figure out what happened, and you take that back to your training to ingrain whatever it is into your body.
I mean, that's the only reason I film and share video of myself getting pushed, so I and the others that are in the videos can see what we're doing right and wrong and let that inform our training.
It's also kind of fun for people to think that's the length and the breadth of my art, but I digress.
I know a lot of people really believe the only reliable source of insight and information is their teacher and for them I say I am so glad they have found that teacher and have enough access to satisfy their need for information and correction.
Some of us have to do a lot of this work for ourselves, and that is where push hands comes in. It can lie and mislead you, but stay true to the art and tend the roots and the branches will grow.
Bottom line: If you're not losing (getting pushed) you're not learning. If you're not figuring new stuff out, you're stagnating.
I need to make some talking videos I think some of you have a strange picture in your head of me.
