Zhong Ding - Understanding Force

[origami_itto]

I'm struggling with a punch being a sharp push.

Completely different.

I guess if you're talking about "a push" ok, but the Taijiquan energy "an" or even "jie" really have very little in common with "a push".

If I were forced to place "a punch" on the ba gua I'd be more inclined to kao or zhou.

There's confusion about jin vs jia all over. The shape is just a medium for transmitting the energy, it does not create it.

[Steve James]

Push v punch is a matter of acceleration. Maybe it's possible to categorize pushes by "before" or "after" contact. I.o.w., the difference between pushing on something and pushing into or through something. Imo, it's the difference between impulse and impact.

Ah, iinm, in Chinese "tui" is like pushing a car.

Anyway, the movement may be the same, but the effect of pushing someone in the head and punching it will be different. So will a good slap. Just accelerate the skull faster than the brain.

Another way to look at it is push is long (force, energy, jin, etc) and punch is short. A similar analogy is that Lu is long and "pluck" (tsai?) is short. Actually, imo, "punch" describes a hand position (during an application). Iow, a palm strike (as in some BKTS) uses An, which basically the same body mechanics as a punch (or a poke):).

[wayne hansen]

For those that can’t understand what I’m saying or see all the misunderstandings I see here
I can’t help you
The reasons I said misunderstandings was precisely because there were too many to name
If you speak English please don’t use Chinese names like they are a magic mantra
If you can’t describe it in English or apply it in pushing they are just empty words in a foreign language
Brush Knee is just push done with other hand while the other does split
So if BKTS can be a punch so push is two punches

[Giles]

Oh, come on Wayne, get off your high horse. No one is being rude to you here, so what's with the beef?

And if you're referring to my use of the terms peng, lu, ji, an (as a non-Chinese speaker), then I think you're going over the top. In my opinion all the English translations of these 4 key energies are misleading and/or don't do the qualities justice. And the Chinese terms are short and to the point. Or do you think we should stop using the term tai chi chuan / taijiquan and instead only talk about Grand Ultimate Fist or Union of Yin & Yang Boxing etc. ?

[windwalker]

For those that can’t understand what I’m saying or see all the misunderstandings I see here
I can’t help you
The reasons I said misunderstandings was precisely because there were too many to name
If you speak English please don’t use Chinese names like they are a magic mantra
If you can’t describe it in English or apply it in pushing they are just empty words in a foreign language
Brush Knee is just push done with other hand while the other does split
So if BKTS can be a punch so push is two punches

As a general viewpoint, I agree with Wayne.
We might have different view points on other things...it's all good

Even in China and Taiwan among native speakers, there is a great conversation going on as to terms and meanings of skill sets.
Having the skill, the public viewpoint of such skill is vastly different from the actual skill set itself.
So much so that when viewed, what is viewed is often referred to as fake or "complaint" .

It would very interesting for any posting to show a clip of their work, with the skill sets they write about...
something that is unique to taiji....as they practice it..

[Bao]

interesting discussion...
So a punch is a push? Depends on what you mean by push I guess. A late friend of mine had a terribly powerful push. The first time he demonstrated it on me it felt like his whole power went into my body and nearly as my ribcage was crushed. It hurt good. A good tai chi punch can also have a penetrating effect, feels like a shock through the whole system. So a push or a punch maybe has more to do with how much you want to hurt someone...

[wayne hansen]

Giles I wasn’t referring to your post specifically
So what is missing in the English you can only express in Chinese
Are you fluent in Chinese
Are you fluent in Tai chi
Tai chi is the name of the art just like Toyota is the name of the car
I don’t really call my art tai chi just because what is usually called tai chi is not what I do
You are right no one was being rude to me
Until you in frustration and want of a better answer told me to get off my high horse
In fact it is a Shetland Pony
I have used push in a road rage situation with abrupt energy
The agressive protagonist backed down and got back in his car
This was from an inch away from his chest
Abrupt and prolonged energy are more the point

[Trick]

As always, Waynes writings are deep and profound.
The analogy to the boxers jab is excellent, for the jab is the cornerstone technique of boxing, its the set up for the boxers further advancement.
Everyone so hurried about power and force skipping the essentials.

[origami_itto]

Giles I wasn’t referring to your post specifically
So what is missing in the English you can only express in Chinese
Are you fluent in Chinese
Are you fluent in Tai chi
Tai chi is the name of the art just like Toyota is the name of the car
I don’t really call my art tai chi just because what is usually called tai chi is not what I do
You are right no one was being rude to me
Until you in frustration and want of a better answer told me to get off my high horse
In fact it is a Shetland Pony
I have used push in a road rage situation with abrupt energy
The agressive protagonist backed down and got back in his car
This was from an inch away from his chest
Abrupt and prolonged energy are more the point

EDIT: I apologize in advance here, y'all, this is rambly and incoherent as hell. Might leave it to revise later.

Personally, I appreciate the precision of the jargon. It helps when referring to writing by different masters when looking for their perspective.

My own teachers may not agree with everything I have to say here, and that's fine, when I'm learning from someone, or even just conversing with them, I strive to understand what they are saying from the framework of what they are teaching.

I know it can get confusing and unwieldy to try manage multiple frameworks for thinking about doing the same thing, but that's literally what I get paid to do. Kung fu systems and information technology systems have a lot of similarities with regards to specialization. A different vendor may have a completely different implementation but use the same jargon, or the same exact function but completely DIFFERENT jargon. The industry as a whole may have yet another vocabulary to discuss the thing it's doing.

So for that reason, language and jargon is critically important for a thorough understanding, but you have to also be willing to let go of the rigidness of your concepts when trying to talk to technicians who are more familiar with a different vendor.

Everything that I'm talking about here, though, is backed by the classics and/or writings of acknowledged masters throughout history.

When I first read T. T. Liang's book I found it a bit confusing because he translated absolutely everything, instead of jin for example he said "intrinsic energy"

Which is all well and good for getting started, but the more you cross reference writings and teachings the more it helps to have consistent vocabulary to refer to it by.

If you don't know the difference between "a push" and "an" there's nothing I can do to explain it to you, but they have literally nothing to do with each other.

And like here "Abrupt and prolonged energy", why use those words, why not use what we have already? Long jin and short jin.

But even then, a short an is more like dropping a stack of bricks on somebody than "a punch".

You ever go to the beach on a day where the ocean is just sort of rolling in gently? And you're sitting in the water and as it rises and falls, you just go with it. Your mass connects with the mass of the ocean and the energy being carried by the water molecules and you and the ocean together move "as one qi". THAT is a Taijiquan push.

It's not a fist or hand of water making contact and pushing that spot to create movement. The energy in the water and your body joins and moves as one. There's not a point of contact to resist, there's nothing to fight against. The energy your body is settled into is moving.

I've only used it live once, doing security for a rapper named Plies that didn't show up, we had a riot. Bottles and tables flying, people taking advantage of the chaos to settle old debts. We had about 10 security for a crowd of 2000.

A guy that had at least six inches and fifty pounds on me tried to push me out of the way to go jump into a brawl that my co-workers were trying to break up. I slapped my hands on his chest, he pushed into that, I rolled my hands so my palms faced me and pulled him and his shirt, that pulled him onto his toes and gave me all of his weight, we were connected, I stepped forward and expanded, he was airborne. I set him down gently several feet closer to the door. He looked at me very confusedly and decided to let us handle the situation.

Okay, that ONE time live, but we drilled that for hours in class, and I used to do it to new freemasons during their initiation...

The "push" that always gets me is where they just put one or both hands like under the armpit or on the side of my chest there and they just extend like a ladder.

Technically it's a push, usually, they're putting everything they have into getting me to move my foot a half step or so under full control. The energy they put on me is bound up in the top half. I just run out of room basically and get crowded out. Working on it.

So it's a push, sure, but it's not a Taijiquan push IMHO. It's just winning the game. It's not getting my whole mass under your control and out of my control, it's just generating more force.

A better example of "an" or a Taijiquan push, is like, let's say my hands are on your forearms, I sink through your forearms and pull your whole structure forward and down, basically putting at least 200 lbs of pressure on your frame. That causes you to do one of several things. You run away and I eat your space until there is no where to run and you don't have the strength to fight, you fight and I push down and pull you out of it, or I let go and let you pop up and then I come under your energy and add a little peng to send you out.

I mean, of course you can counter it, neutralize my pressure and reorient yourself to attack me in response. If you can do it.

So in "long jin" I'd just apply that pressure, maybe increase it as I go, and use that to control the opponent, prevent their attacking me and basically make them think of nothing else but carrying my weight and strength.

In "short jin" I'd drop it suddenly. Being nice I just go an inch or two, but to prove a point I'll go through the floor... without moving my hands any further. Being nice, they bounce up like a basketball and I can pop em out, being mean they might pop out, they might just crumple like a soda can and drop. The first time I tried it on a human my poor friend had a sore lower back for a couple days and he's one of the better martial artists I know. Someone with less conditioning could have gotten hurt a lot worse.

In my defense we were drinking and he was begging me to show him something so I did, but I digress.

Point being, in that shape and that energy, the jia and jin of push and an, we've got applications with long jin, the gentle push out and the na jin application, and we've got short jin, and cold jin.

I find these terms and applications useful in my pushing, others might not, maybe "just push" and "a punch is just a fast push" works for them, but it's not the Taijiquan I'm striving for.

A punch, to me, is just elbow stroke, it's a fallback for when peng lu ji an fails to establish control. I dunno I feel like I could rant for days about this.

Elbow is bending around things, it''s sort of disconnected by comparison. Folding. Attack the head and the tail responds, right?

Kao then is going through them with the entire mass of the body. You can apply with the shoulder or, hey, the arm is attached to the shoulder, why not use the fist.

In either case, I personally try to avoid striking as "crashing in" or "resisting", it puts energy back into my body that can cause injury and it is hard to argue in court that a punch was not a punch if it ever comes down to that. I'd much rather hit them with the ground and make it look like I'm trying to help them.

Still ranting... Merry Christmas y'all, and may the odds be ever in your favor.

[Steve James]

It's not worth arguing about because it won't make a difference. It'll become a push or a punch or a chop or a slap or a pierce when it happens. It can be any of those things until the moment of contact. They are not the same, and will not have the same effect.

I don't think wayne or origami are wrong. I think that's the problem with the discussion. Too Cartesian Maybe it is better to look at it from a yin/yang pov, and not think in terms of either/or. Anyway, if An is like a jab, is Ji like a cross? Or does mixing the concepts with the words work? It may be possible to see the relation of Press to a cross --without saying they're the same thing. (Ok, someone may say that it's not "Press" it's "Squeeze."

It's already come up in this thread that tcc has the 8 and 5. None of them is 'punch.' so it's included. Even then, as I was taught, there were "fists" not "punches." Some even said it was specifically not a punch. However, afa striking, a punch is a specific action, not a theory. There are different types of jabs in boxing/striking. There's the snap jab a la Ali; then there's Foreman's power jab (and he also shoves); and there's Hagler's shovel jab. Yeah, I know, and variations of these can be found in tcc. Of course, it's the execution in application, and that takes practicing them at speed.

[origami_itto]

Ultimately the 13 postures becomes a model that is meaningful within a transmission or individual conception.

The map we hold in our head because of this is either useful or not. Most people don't seem to think it's worth spending much time thinking about them.

So the five steps are just, be balanced, step forward, step backward, step left, and step right.

it works for them. Good for them.

[everything]

No idea if I agree or disagree, lol

Merry Xmas Ya Filthy Animals!

[twocircles13]

No idea if I agree or disagree, lol

Merry Xmas Ya Filthy Animals!

Merry Christmas and happy holidays back at ya and to everyone.

[twocircles13]

Everyone knows Force equals Mass times Acceleration, but that’s not the whole story by a long shot.

This information has endangered friendships...
https://atomictaichi.com/2023/12/07/und ... ing-force/

Force is usually understood by the layperson as “Mass times acceleration” or F=MxA.

For most purposes in martial arts, this is a sufficient understanding. We can talk about an object, like a fist, moving at a speed when it makes contact with a face and the force equation expresses the energy exchange very well in that context.

What we don’t consider, usually, is that this is just a measure of the difference of unbalanced forces. Without movement, specifically without a change in velocity, it is not a meaningful formula. It measures “net force” not “total force” or “applied force”. Only force that is successful in accomplishing work, not all of the forces involved in making something happen, in reality, this just measures the excess force.

The OP only quoted the first couple of paragraphs, an introduction, but the article was linked. I was curious what the author had to say about Zhong Ding and what he thought that had to do with understanding energy, and I was curious where he would go with his biomechanics hook.

Taijiquan can be analyzed by biomechanics. The mechanics is pretty straight forward, but the bio-, for biological systems, is complex. Where the author brings up four or five formulas, you would probably need a dozen or so and two or three times as many measurements depending on your question. The author adds two people, so that doubles more variables and more data to collect and adds two-person dynamics like barycenters and impacts. It’s complex, but it’s doable.

However, I’ve learned by sad experience that the surest way to screw up an athlete is to talk to him about his or her biomechanics. Golfers are the worst, they always seem to want to know about their biomechanics. It messes them up every time. They often go to "swing doctors;" the good ones get them out of their heads and the bad ones make them think too much.

The primary reason for this is cognitive interference. Different parts of the brain are sending overlapping signals to the motor cortex (the motor control center of the brain), which causes errors in the signals that reach the muscles that throw things off. The worst culprits are the cognitive portions of our brains that interfere with the motor control portions.

We have some voluntary control of many of our muscles in the cognitive portions of our brain, but its like a backseat driver. The motor control portions are wired to the sensory organs, which lets us do thing without thinking about them. For example, talking to a friend in the car while driving or performing some task.

Additionally, cognitive interference slows down our reaction time, not a good thing in a martial art.

A lot of IMA training is specifically designed to block or decrease cognitive interference.

I also learned the hard way that figuring out the biomechanics is not the best way to learn a martial art and I have taken years to move myself into other modes of learning.

[twocircles13]

From the article...

I yield, and when the enemy’s force is spent, I counterattack
This is a perfect example of a central concept in Taijiquan. The great initial force is absorbed into the trampoline, and when it is spent, it is returned into the body that delivered it and the trampoline returns to a neutral state. In physics this sort of interaction is known as elastic force. It’s the same force at play with a bouncing rubber ball.

I think this is not taijiquan at all, but it may be a common misconception.

It doesn’t agree with taiji principles, the timing of taiji is one, not 1, 2.

Second, it is not a sound practice. It entirely depends on your being able to retreat longer than I can attack. If I can take you even a ¼ inch beyond your furthest point of comfort or balance, you are undone.

I think likely this is a product of fixed-step and limited-step push hands practices. It certainly is not a "central concept in Taijiquan."