It's Fascia-nating

[windwalker]

By the way I hate riding bikes. Don't worry I am just a grumpycat today.

Worry about what "writing".
Find it funny, amusing...to a point...

Peace park, waiting for you....

As to the OP, feel that the "筋膜" (jīnmó)"

Can be trained directly although it takes a long time, due to what is being trained.
Some asking for specific movements or exercises that directly address it..Might be better to look at it as
a systematic method of training by teachers that use this as a focal point of their training....
or a training method that incorporates it as part of it's overall approach.

The admonition of "do not use force" a good starting point to understand how this is done.
One might look at the definition of what "force" is derived from in this context to understand why.

[Appledog]

By the way I hate riding bikes. Don't worry I am just a grumpycat today.

Worry about what "writing".
Find it funny, amusing...to a point...

Peace park, waiting for you....

Coincidentally I had mentioned peace park in my recent post about Master Jou (nothing to do with this thread,) although I edited it down. I've been to peace park several times, but no one punched me in the face. I don't need to tell you how easy it is for me to find someone who can punch me in the face here. So the reason why I don't like Peace Park is not because of that. It's possible if I lived in Taipei I would go there a lot more, but I want to learn set form (pre-arranged) push hands, and I don't have an interest in getting randomly pushed out with no real feedback process. It comes down to like riding a bike. I don't like learning that way. Yes it is possible. But it is also very chaotic and somewhat non-transferrable. I would never teach my kids that way. Who knows, maybe there is a group there that does pre-arranged pushing. I just don't live there, so I wouldn't even know. I did have fun when I went to see the group you mentioned. They're pretty good, I even paid for some lessons. Just not really in the cards for me.

The gist of my reference to peace park in the jou thread was something like that-- if you can't get to peace park, that doesn't mean you can't find someone in a local park. Considering where I live now there are over 100 people doing Tai Chi in the park by 5am, and by 7am every park nearby has at least 100 people in it doing every kind of tai chi and qigong. And, that is likely the kind of place Jou learned his Tai Chi from. Now in America, when Jou went to the park, there was no one there. At all. Doing anything. So Jou became something of a beacon in America.

[origami_itto]

The gist of my reference to peace park in the jou thread was something like that-- if you can't get to peace park, that doesn't mean you can't find someone in a local park. Considering where I live now there are over 100 people doing Tai Chi in the park by 5am, and by 7am every park nearby has at least 100 people in it doing every kind of tai chi and qigong. And, that is likely the kind of place Jou learned his Tai Chi from. Now in America, when Jou went to the park, there was no one there. At all. Doing anything. So Jou became something of a beacon in America.

Gotta be the one that people find when they come.

[suckinlhbf]

This is called plucking, like a guzheng. Like Ba Duan Jin draw the bow. Right?

Let me try make you a short clip.

[wayne hansen]

Giles to get the most out of Huangs exercises practice them in their original order for a while
The one you call no 1 is actually no 3
I know Huang never said they were for Facia
Appledog the ones you show break tai chi 10 essential points

[wiesiek]

..."Can be trained directly..."

I don`t know, which base level You have in mind, Windy?

From my POV any move done consciously, in accordance with the breath and maximum internal stretching (qi flow )can be called "fascia training",
However
Training directed on 3H meridians, seems to me be best suitable- for that task.
and
Wayne, I`m quite aware about official truth about magic 3 number there

[Giles]

Giles to get the most out of Huangs exercises practice them in their original order for a while
The one you call no 1 is actually no 3

Thanks for the well-meant advice, Wayne. Seriously. But I do what I do with various jibengong exercises for my own well-considered reasons. And I also see why that particular exercise is not the 'first' one in terms of build-up (but I don't do all of Huang's exercises nowadays anyway, I have built my own 'playlist' over the years). I referred to it by this name because otherwise nobody would know what I was talking about, right? More importantly, I just quoted one example of an exercise, chosen here because I know you also know it well, to emphasize the fascial component in response to your earlier question.
It's understandable that it happens but on this forum, small context-related statements often get extrapolated wildly.

I know Huang never said they were for Facia

Yes obviously he never said that. Neither did I.

Ach, mensch. It's a bit like saying "I like strawberries a lot" and the next thing you hear is "You need to eat a much wider range of fruit, and also nuts. Bingeing on strawberries every day is not a good idea!"

I think I'll bow out of this thread now.

[wayne hansen]

I never said you did
I was referring to the general discussion
I take it you won’t see this now u have bowed out

[windwalker]

..."Can be trained directly..."

I don`t know, which base level You have in mind, Windy?

From my POV any move done consciously, in accordance with the breath and maximum internal stretching (qi flow )can be called "fascia training",
However
Training directed on 3H meridians, seems to me be best suitable- for that task.

With out seeing any clips of your movement or anyone's else's movement,
makes it a little bit hard to talk about things...

Found the thread interesting, something that was touched on in China, only called "筋膜" (jīnmó)

Only recently come to understand that "fascia" is the word used in the west

Seems a little different then the way it mentioned and used in our training . Not something focused on, only mentioned in passing..
everything was first felt and shown...a senior student used a chicken to help explain the interfaces between tendon and muscle, tendon and bone.
Muscle and the "筋膜" (jīnmó)


Our fist level of training "skin" this meant that nothing was done that would impact the frame directly....
Underlying structure of the frame "bone"

Should one start to interact on this level, it would be to slow...its different.

[everything]

maybe some kind of easier example would help. i can feel my plantar fascia (having injured it) if it hurts. i can feel some "qi sensation" at the "bubbling well" (sort of near the plantar fascia area). are we trying to say 1. relax muscles 2. stretch "sinews" 3. qi can flow in them? these two feelings seem different, but is someone trying to claim the "qi feeling" is in this plantar fascia? something else? how about the "lower dantian" as a "battery"? a "bunch of fascia" that can "store qi"?

[origami_itto]

I think Jin is a more appropriate thing to think about here. We take qi from a variety of sources to condense into jin and make things happen. Gravity, return force, muscular strength, and tissue elasticity.

Expanding and stretching while relaxing, reverse loading, bones swimming in flesh, it makes lazily tying coat suggest a different idea.

What I'm finding more and more is my muscular contractions are mainly used to wind up the negative load to have something to release.

The bands are definitely thickening. It's apparent in the quality and quantity of force produced.

[wiesiek]

ok, W.,
Quite recently, I`ve been thinkin` about my wife doing vid. of my 1,2,3;
Don`t know when it will happen exactly - but, during this year for sure.
Can be neat re-introduction here.

[Giles]

I never said you did
I was referring to the general discussion
I take it you won’t see this now u have bowed out

Still reading

[windwalker]

对比这个第一个动作，从左扣最后一个动作呼气，到过渡时的吞咽，筋膜扩张（呼气），仿佛周围的空气随着筋膜收缩而聚集到皮毛中。 此时，身体也随着筋膜的收缩，悄无声息地发生着形状的变化。 这个转弯可以达到90度。 这是由于纯粹筋膜的作用，而不是四肢腰部和臀部的刻意旋转（大关节的运动）。 小于九十度）。


Comparing this first movement, the fascia expands (exhales) from the last movement of left clasping to exhale, to the swallowing of inhalation at the transition, as if the surrounding air is gathered into the fur as the fascia contracts. At this time, the body also changes shape quietly and without any trace as the fascia contracts. This turn can reach 90 degrees. It is due to the function of pure fascia rather than the deliberate rotation of the waist and hips of the limbs (the movement of the large joints). less than ninety degrees).


Google translate...

The idea concept of 筋膜" (jīnmó) "fascia",
is trained and used directly as mentioned.
The conversation a little different by those who actively use this either directly
or indirectly....In China, what was moving and how, matches what the article mentioned..
It's quite consistent among the lines of tai chi practice that use this to explain how the movements are done..


"At the moment of conversion, the mind should be very still, and the body will hardly move automatically. Instead, according to the contraction of the fascia, the body will move slightly to the right. Just a little bit is enough to make the right foot empty (it is related to the rising of earth energy). ).

For such an inconspicuous movement as "hugging the knees, walking, turning, hand, and waving the pipa", not only the right hand, left foot, and right foot move simultaneously, but the whole body is actually busy internally with this matter, but it looks so calm on the outside. .

Others include the right-hand twisting of the shoe, the hand-pressing twist to a single whip, the single-whip twist to the handle, the jade girl's shuttle movement, etc., there are too many to mention, and they are all done in one breath and one breath. [Note 3]"



You don't use your hands, but your hands move densely and evenly, and the source of power is the fascia system inside . [Note 11]

[Bao]

Because Chinese write something you should not stop being critical and refrain from analyze what is said.

the fascia expands (exhales) from the last movement of left clasping to exhale, to the swallowing of inhalation at the transition, as if the surrounding air is gathered into the fur as the fascia contracts. At this time, the body also changes shape quietly and without any trace as the fascia contracts.

Again, WHAT fascia??? Where??? The fascia covering the bones? Organs? Muscles? Or the fascia that connects muscles with the skin???

Fascia cannot contract or expand by itself, only as a consequences of the movements of the body, internally or externally.

For such an inconspicuous movement as "hugging the knees, walking, turning, hand, and waving the pipa", not only the right hand, left foot, and right foot move simultaneously, but the whole body is actually busy internally with this matter, but it looks so calm on the outside. .

Good quote. Just skip the all of the rest.